Honing a blunt razor?

I am practicing honing on some ebay razors(which are all completely blunt, to the point of being butter knives), and i managed to get one (a bonsa 9/16) to the point it would shave my face.
I achieved this by first using 1500 grit sandpaper and then using the Norton 4k/8k to get it not brilliantly sharp but sharp so that it removed hair from my face. I was trying desparately to get this sharper by using the norton with pyramids, but it never seemed to get any better. I then tried going back to the 1500, and spent some(more than i felt comfortable with) time on that, then very few strokes on the 4 & 8k stones which then surprisingly left me with a sucessful HHT and very sharp razor.
When using the 4k/8k after 1500 on blunt razors, is it more likely to need very few strokes ?
I am a bit wary to try it on any other razors in case using the paper is removing too much metal.
Is it acceptable to say that if the 4 & 8k stones don't seem to get it any sharper then it needs to go to the paper?
Should a razor that did actually shave my face, even though it was not a great shave ever need to be honed on such a rough grit?
Any suggestions would be appreciated as i have several more razors i would like to get as sharp as this one.
Thanks

Sometimes you don't fully establish the bevel, so you do need to go back to the rougher grits to re-establish it before moving on. One way to preserve the appearance of your razors is to tape the spine with electrical tape before using the 1500 or 1000.

Yes, i read this and made sure i did this, not because the razor is a particularly beautiful one, but i guess it is good to treat it like one until i have a nice one!
I thougth this may have been the problem, just not sure how, if the bevel was not well enough established that i managed to get it to shave at all?
I guess it is just something you learn as you go along i guess

Nicky,

When I have a butterknife-dull razor, or one with some small nicks in the blade, I tape the spine and start on 800 or 1000-grit sandpaper. I'll do 50 to 100 laps with firm, even pressure. Usually that's enough to reestablish the bevel.

Do a search for posts on the "thumbnail test," which will help you check for evenness along the edge. When you pass the thumbnail test, you're ready to move on to the 4K. I usually do about 50 laps on the 4K, starting with firm pressure and then easing up at the end. Generally that's enough to get the razor passing the hanging hair test. (For me a razor has to pass the HHT off the 4K, or I'll never get it there with pyramids.) Then I do a conservative pyramid with light pressure. At that point the razor will shave, but I like to finish by stropping on balsa wood pasted with a diamond abrasive.

To answer your second question, the bevel can be properly reestabished on some parts of the edge but not others. Usually for me that means the middle part is sharp and the toe and heel aren't. In that case the middle would shave and the ends would just hurt. :eek:

Keep the questions coming,
Josh

I have been using the thumbnail test to test my honing, however i still lack the experience to tell me exactly what i am looking for. I think i know, but i find it hard to tell how far is too far. Sometimes i get the blade digging in really smooth, but when i try to finish it off it seems far from sharp. Sometimes i do the test and it digs in so hard and deep that it feels like it is almost vibrating because maybe it digs too deep and gets stuck and then pulls free(is this the overhoned scratching described?)
I have trouble with the hanging hair test, as my hair is so so fine, i keep on begging from people for a piece of hair to test on! i think they are getting tired of it! i have never been able to get a hair to pop from the 4k, it seems like an impossible task! i did read your advice about this somewhere else and tried once. I spent ages on the 4k every 10 laps checking to see if it worked, but to no avail!
Thanks
Nick

Nick,

The HHT off the 4K thing works for me, but I do have thick hair. It takes time to figure out how the different tests will work for you individually.

The smooth bite you're describing is the feeling you want. You're right--a scratching feeling means the razor is overhoned.

When I get a clean bite on my nail, I have to do 5 to 10 very light strokes on the 4K to get it HHT sharp. It took me a while to get to that point--a few months, probably. The whole straight razor thing has been a longer process for me. There's a touch you have to develop.

Go for the smooth, biting draw on your nail. Then do a conservative pyramid and test shave. :shrug: Be patient; you just have to struggle a bit at first, but once you get the feel for it everything comes more easily.

Good luck,
Josh

TNT only tells me when there are nicks and when the edge is totally rounded, two very drastic situations.

It could be that the bevel wasn't quite completed and all the work on the pyramid you did wasn't enough to produce a shave. Since you got something of a shave before going to the sandpaper, this is unlikely.

I suspect you had simply overhoned the edge, producing too smooth and fine an edge to get a very good shave and that going back to something duller cut some nice grooves which were still present and helpful to cutting, but well refined after a little more work on the honing stone. this has happened to me a lot. :o

X

The thing you have to remember (and I'm always being reminded of this myself) is that honing is truly an art and a skill and there really is no scientific way of approaching this. In a feeble attempt at providing guidance to people starting out we suggest the pyramid routines and these little tests and other suggestions but each has to adapt his own methods and each razor is different in what it requires.

I have a good example. Fro the last few days I have been working on 2 Eboy specials I got. One was a Bresnick 4/8s hollow and the other was a Cattaraguas 5/8s hollow. After cleaning up, the Catt. looked brand spanking new while the Bresnick still had corrosion on the tow end real close to the edge and the edge there looked like a rip saw. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to salvage it but within about 2 hours I was able to reestablish the bevel and hone it up and the thing shaves like a dream. The Catt I've spent 3x the time and it still doesn't shave worth a damn. Under magnification the edge looks perfect so whats the problem? The catt is U.S made and the steel is very hard and its going to just take more time to bring the edge to shaving condition. I had to swap out the coticule and instead used the 12K katayama stone on the cat and actually after about 2 hours of solid honing on the 12K it started to come around and I think is in good shape now though I'll find out tomorrow when I use it.

So the moral of the story is that it just takes practice and with experience you develop a feel for when the razor just feels like its ready and if its not responding a different technique or a different stone may be needed. It may be a matter of having to use pressure on the razor, or having to use an X pattern of applying even pressure along the entire blade because of a slight warp or maybe evil spirits.

I certainly do need more experience as i have only benn attempting this for two weeks! I have come further than i thought though, i managed to get a shave on my second day of having the norton. From reading this site, i thought it would take me 2 months before i could shave with my dull razors.
I guess a little practice will help to refine the technique so that i know exactly how sharp is sharp!
Thanks

In most cases an Ebay razor will have an edge that is oxidised and weak. It also will have some minor chipping of the edge.
This will require you to remove the oxidised edge and nicks. The fastest tool is the 1K sandpaper. Occasionally it will only require the 4K hone. In each case hone until the nicks are gone and it passes the TNT. If you use a microscope then the bevel should have a uniform texture(scratch lines) and uniform color for the full width of the bevel.
To make sure that the nicks are gone you need to clean the bevel and move up to the 8K hone and perform approx 20 laps , clean the bevel and then examine the bevel again.
The 1k is not the tool to develop the bevel, it is only for removing oxidised steel and nicks. The 4K is where the bevel is formed. So, I remove the weak steel and bad edge with the 1K then move on to the 4K for 25-50 laps to establish the bevel. From there you start using the pyramids. Some of the razors with a harder steel will require more laps.
Establishing the bevel is the most critical part of honing. Without a decent bevel you are just spinning your wheels.

thanks, i have a microscope in the post, but i have since read the ebay traders feedback to reveal that my item is shipped from hong kong, so i could be waiting a while! In the mean time i think i shall keep my remaining razors in the drawer and be very careful with the ones that shave ok, so that i can examine all when this microscope arrives!

I'm not sure of the grits on my stones (coarse synthetic, medium and fine Arkansas, and Lithide), but I'm pretty sure the coarse one is far below 4k. I didn't realize one had to move to such a high grit before establishing the initial bevel. Thank you, Randy! No wonder I've been getting nowhere.

How does one tell when a good initial bevel has been established? Should it already be popping hairs? I've found the thumbpad test less than reliable, winding up with a lot of wire edges from the overly coarse stone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feng_Li

I'm not sure of the grits on my stones (coarse synthetic, medium and fine Arkansas, and Lithide), but I'm pretty sure the coarse one is far below 4k. I didn't realize one had to move to such a high grit before establishing the initial bevel. Thank you, Randy! No wonder I've been getting nowhere.

How does one tell when a good initial bevel has been established? Should it already be popping hairs? I've found the thumbpad test less than reliable, winding up with a lot of wire edges from the overly coarse stone.

---

For me, an initial bevel is established when the thumbnail test is passed with a smooth, even bite/draw for the full length of the blade. Under the microscope, 30X, the bevel will be all one color and texture for the full length and width of the blade.

Two colors on the bevel, with the darkest one being along the edge, indicate two seperate bevels. If there are different textures at the heal and toe or anywhere along the bevel this means that your not making even contact with the hone.

BTW, a coarse hone will not leave a wire edge but rather a ragged edge.

I suggest you talk to MParker about which of the Arkansas stones to use to establish the bevel. Be sure and keep the surface of the Arkansas refreshed. A;lso, you may want to stop using your coarse stone and use a 1000 grit sandpaper instead as a means of removing old, oxidised steel and visible nicks.


Hope this helps,:)

Guys

I am just about to go for the stage one on an e-bayer. What pattern do I use on the 1000 sand paper, edge first or trailing...I know...dumb question...

Use good quality wet-dry paper, and stick it to a smooth, flat surface. Use a regular honing motion--edge first.

Good luck!

Josh

I'd also like to remind the guys just starting to play with ebay razors that patience is critical. It can take a surprising amount of time to bring one of these back to shaving sharp - it really makes you appreciate just how hard this steel is and how terribly slow these hones really are. I think one of the advantages that experience gives you is appreciation of this fact so you don't get frustrated when you run into problems. Also the confidence to know that you can actually do it with enough time and careful enough attention. Then it becomes less of a "problem" and more of a "puzzle", and puzzles are a lot more fun to solve.