What's you pattern for eBay specials? (Crap to SHARP³)

I know this could TECHNICALLY go in the restoration sub forum but since the topic I'm asking about is specifically about honing without regards to scales or any other aspect of razor care/restoration I figured I'd get better results here.

So I've been buying some blades on eBay, as have many of you, and while some are in decent shape others have the shaving ability of a Dorito. So let's assume some of the worst and go from there, my example for this will be the Henckels I bought that is now MY restoration project combined with some other blades I have dealt with because they will give us some things we can go with as far as working out technique for getting things fixed and working properly.

My blade has a TINY nick in the edge about a third of the way from the toe. I spent some time on the 1000 Norton and it has gotten smaller but even after what I feel to be a LOOOOOONG time it is still present when I run the edge on my thumbnail. HOW long is too long when working out issues with the 1K? 100 strokes? 200? 500? should I be applying more pressure, light touch be damned?

Also, as with many other razors the edge doesn't seem to contact along the entire length of the blade. This is somewhat my own fault I think as the heel contacts better than anything else (I assume because it's closest to my hand holding the shank) and sometimes better in the middle on one side and the ends on the other. My instinct would be to go to the 1K and stroke it till the whole edge is even but something tells me that would be wrong. How do you go about working on this sort of problem?

I suppose those are the two biggies for me PERSONALLY...though I have to admit my favorite razor has a seriously messed up toe. The edge hones up nicely from the heel to about the last 1/8 or so of the blade where the edge starts to curve back towards the spine. Obviously it was honed that way by a previous owner, but since that end doesn't contact the hone I've never really gotten it shaving. I've just learned to make do. That's partly why I'm so excited about this restoration, it's my favorite brand, it's a spike (what I like) and the pint is intact which means it could easily become my NEW favorite shaver.

Maybe if I can ask the right questions this can help out some OTHER newbies like myself by getting a lot of the more "technique-centric" questions and answers in a single place. So all you bad-asses belly up to the bar and talk my ear off OK?

Well I'm glad this is in the Honing Forum as I'm shite at resto.

First I clean the blade with metal polish.

Then I tape the spine and do circles on my cheep Chinese kitchen hone which I don't even know the grit of, but imagine its two sides are somewhere between 600 and 1000 grit. I'll typically do about 50 circles on each side because it doesn't really cut too fast, then TNT and eyeball it till it's ready changing the tape whenever it gets worn. That'll depend on the type of tape you have on hand. I use steady and somewhat heavy pressure, as much as I feel I can handle without making uneven pressure.

At this point it's time for a full pyramid op to 15/5 or 20/5 and back down again on the Norton combo. TTT and HHT until I'm happy to move on.

I finish with a very few, very light strokes on my Shapton 12k. I mean 3-6 short strokes with ultra light pressure, Then pastes. about 12-24 on the 0.5µ Cr2O3 and 6-12 on the 0.25µ Diamond paste. Each blade likes it a little differently and I'm still playing with my technique, but that's my process.

Irregularly shaped blades will require creative approaches to creating evenness, but in my experience trying to isolate areas only leads to overhoning. I therefore always try to keep as much of the blade on the hone at one time and if that's diminishing, I try to diminish my pressure too.

X

First off lemme do this :y

I got that old Henckel hunk of crap I bought popping hairs like a champ with only a little bit of time on the 1K (for that nick), one pass through the aggressive pyramid, and one pass through the conservative pyramid. WOOHOO FOR ME! Heel and toe aren't quite there yet but I'm not used to using those much anyhow.

Second off, it sounds like you are confirming my "1K grind it till it's even" technique. Is that the case or am I reading it wrong?

OMG did I actually name this thread "What's YOU pattern"?!?!?!

The Henckels brand of razors are known for having steel that is harder then most razors. Congratulations on your progress.

The X pattern of honing will usually helps in getting the toe of a razor keen.

When you are removing nicks then use some pressure, a light touch is not required at that stage, 1-2 lnbs of pressure is my norm for the 1K.

The 1K is a very fast cutter. I don't have one, I use the 4K and using circular honing I have been able to remove some respectable nicks in a few minutes. You just have to keep at it until the edge responds. If you need more pressure apply it. At this stage your doing gross work to the edge anyway so I wouldn't worry about finessee here. I would just be checking to make sure you don't have a warp in the blade since you say both sides don't contact the hone. If you have a warp you'll never sharpen the thing unless its minimal and you can apply massive amounts of pressure along the entire blade to force it against the hone. IIf thats the case I know there are a few experts concerning warped blades here. I am not one of them.

I used mine to remove the nick and it actually wasn't too hard to do. I actually felt like I had spent more time than should have been prudent without getting it out. The blade was good and attached to some less than stellar scales, if I had ruined it I wouldn't be OVERLY pissed off, so I just kept at it until it was gone. Then a little bit of Pyramid work and I've got a shaving blade with shitty scales. Going to be ordering the materials to re-scale it next week and hopefully I'll have my first restoration to show for it.

We're getting of track a bit though, and I want to ask a for a little clarification on the warped blade issues. If you have a blade that is contacting on the ends on one side of the blade and in the center on the other side, what options are there for getting it into shape? I don't know that bending it would be a viable solution but I'm not the expert here. Can you bend them back a bit? Do you grind at them until the edge evens out? I mean, it might take a while but with minimal pressure (and a ridiculous amount of time) you could probably get the geometry evened out so that the edge contacts evenly right?

In cases like this, I've had the most success by using Xman's rolling stroke, sometimes combined with an X stroke. You start with the blade angled backward, then roll it forward as you go through the stroke. It helps ensure that every part of the blade hits the stone during each stroke.

Sometimes I'll try to use only a 1/2 inch strip of hone along the edge, but you have to be careful with this. The key seems to be getting every part of the edge on the stone on every stroke. Go slowly.

I haven't had any luck evening out edge geometry, although it probably is theoretically possible. :shrug:

Good luck,
Josh

Ok...so I've been hearing a lot about this mysterious rolling stroke, but even despite my searching I've still got no freaking CLUE what in the hell it is. Here's what I'm working with...

That Wostenholm I bought arrived and I spent about 30 minutes just now honing the living crap out of it and after all that time and energy I managed to get the half starting at the heel sharp enough to cut hair. Not shave sharp yet mind you but well on its way. The toe half on the other hand? Well it'd make a nice Jello knife right about now but beyond that I make no claims whatsoever.

So what in the hell am I supposed to do with this stupid thing anyhow? It's obvious that the edge isn't contacting the stones on half of the blade but I'm not exactly sure about how to go about making up for that problem. PLEASE somebody enlighten my heathen ass so I can grow a bit more in my straight shaving world.

BTW after all this honing lately I'm willing to bet I'm not the first person around here to end up with a bald patch on their leg (my legs never see the light of day and people are starting to look at my arms funny) so everybody STOP LAUGHING!

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao
I'm laughing with you not at you!!!!

Show me your spot and I'll be laughing...right now I'm wishing I had hairier arms :p

I've been honing Quite a few ebay specials lately.
1 arm is completely bald, the other is half way there:rolleyes:

I would help you if I could but I never delt with a warped razor.

Upon a little closer inspection I don't think the razor is warped per se...I THINK I'm actually seeing a second bevel to the edge where it's not sharp. Think bevel that runs the entire length of the blade and at the very edge a SECOND bevel much less acute. Like the bevels on each side of the blade aren't meeting up yet at that end of the blade. I'm going to try a little more time on my 1K focusing on that end and see what happens.

I wish I had better lighting to work under...would'a made it easier to see this before I admitted to having a shaved spot on my leg...

What do ya think?
Is it worth a laugh?

Keep honing on a 4000 grit and check the edge frequently and keep that spine against the hone at all times.

Actually that is kinda funny :) Nice to meet you Mark, I'm Charles. Believe it or not, I've gotten pretty good at honing GOOD blades, it's these troublesome ones that I'm still having trouble with. Like my favorite Henckel, other than the curved toe it hones up easy and I don't have any trouble keeping it good and sharp. I just need to get a bit more familiar with techniques for dealing with problematic blades as I progress. I'm going to keep working on this one for a while before I give up and send it off too...hopefully I want have to.

How long have you been at this?
I've been at it about 15 years and figure it will be another 40 before I have to give it up.On the other hand I've been using this damn computer for about a year and just know I'll give it up any day now. God I hate computers!:mad:

How long have I been at what exactly? Sharp stuff...something around 18 years. Straight razors...something like 2 years. Honing straight razors...about 6 weeks (not counting all the time I spent keeping my Henckel in shape using a Spyderco Sharpmaker).

Computers on the other hand...now THERE'S my forte! I've been up to my elbows in geek-gear for 17 years. I build my own rigs, repair other peoples, and I taught myself to build websites when I was 14 because I got bored one summer. This is my baby...
http://www.gawkerweb.com/computers/DSC00499.jpg

Charles,

This is where we separate the men from the boys. :)

The rolling hone method works like this: Start your honing stroke with the heel leading the toe. As you progress through the stroke, tip the toe forward gradually. At the midpoint, the razor will be perpendicular to the sides of the hone. At the end of the stroke, the toe will be leading the heel.

For me, it works better to combine this with the X stroke. Essentially the blade makes an arc with the center point being the pivot pin.

Your observation about the second bevel is probably correct. This could be caused by uneven spine wear, a slight warp in the blade, or some inconsistency in your stroke.

Sometimes the key to fixing this problem is more pressure, and sometimes it's less pressure. If you're using a lot of pressure right now, try doing 50 to 100 laps with lighter pressure. Too much pressure can flex the blade sometimes, which pushes the very edge of the razor away from the hone.

On the other hand, sometimes I've had success with using a little pressure and focusing on the spot with the double bevel. Until you get rid of that bevel, you'll be wasting your time doing pyramids.

Keep at it--at some point it'll probably just get sharp and leave you scratching your head... :)

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

The rolling hone method works like this: Start your honing stroke with the heel leading the toe. As you progress through the stroke, tip the toe forward gradually. ...

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NO! :nono:

This is NOT the Rolling Hone and can't be recommended. This will overhone your toes and excessively wear the tip down.

The Rolling Hone IS (while keeping the heel leading throughout the whole honing stroke) to change the vertical configuration gently and gradually. Begin the honing stroke with the heel in good contact with the hone and slowly, gradually roll the main point of contact along the edge to the tip so that at the beginning of the stroke the tip is almost (or actually, depending on blade geometry) off the hone by a millimitre, and then at the end of the hone the heel is almost (or actually) off the hone by a milimetre. This motion is essential for smiling blades, but in my experiencer benefits "flat" edges as well (because nothing is truly flat). I have the best success by not overshooting the ends and instead trying to keep the heel and toe well supported by much of the middle of the edge at those extremes. I also draw a very slight X motion only bringing about ¼ or ⅕ of the heel off the hone throughout the stroke. I believe this works to even out the pressure along the edge. Since the heel is very near my one hand honing and the toe far away, the heel gets more pressure whether it wants it or not. By puling it off the hone I can reach that pressure up the hone and get the tip as evenly keen as the heel.

X

PS I think you've been separated, Josh. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

NO! :nono:

This is NOT the Rolling Hone and can't be recommended. This will overhone your toes and excessively wear the tip down.

The Rolling Hone IS (while keeping the heel leading throughout the whole honing stroke) to change the vertical configuration gently and gradually. Begin the honing stroke with the heel in good contact with the hone and slowly, gradually roll the main point of contact along the edge to the tip so that at the beginning of the stroke the tip is almost (or actually, depending on blade geometry) off the hone by a millimitre, and then at the end of the hone the heel is almost (or actually) off the hone by a milimetre. This motion is essential for smiling blades, but in my experiencer benefits "flat" edges as well (because nothing is truly flat). I have the best success by not overshooting the ends and instead trying to keep the heel and toe well supported by much of the middle of the edge at those extremes. I also draw a very slight X motion only bringing about ¼ or ⅕ of the heel off the hone throughout the stroke. I believe this works to even out the pressure along the edge. Since the heel is very near my one hand honing and the toe far away, the heel gets more pressure whether it wants it or not. By puling it off the hone I can reach that pressure up the hone and get the tip as evenly keen as the heel.

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It took me a long time to understand this. Mparker and a couple other guys finally got a good grip on both my shoulders and, heaving in unison, managed to pull my head out of my ass.

Or most of it anyway. The little part I still don't get is, is it possible to do a "zero pressure" or even "negative pressure" stroke using the rolling-hone method? Negative pressure seems out of the question, since (as I understand it) it's predicated on the suction effect of having a whole blade in contact with the hone. As far as zero pressure... it seems unless you've got the muscle coordination of a precision laboratory instrument, you're gonna have to use some pressure with the rock 'n roll. No?

I was trying it out on my one smiley, and I sure felt like I had to use a lot of pressure.

I find the razor has weight and needs the same sense of ultra light pressure to the end of the honingpyramid. With the smiling blades less of the edge is in contact so it gets more effect from this method requiring roughly the same pressure as a 'flat' blade. Since it's just a transfer of pressure with flat blades I still often experience the sucking action of the water called 'negative' pressure. I guess I'm saying all that stuff still aplies.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylandog

The little part I still don't get is, is it possible to do a "zero pressure" or even "negative pressure" stroke using the rolling-hone method?

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Sure. I actually find it easier to do it with a smiling blade than with a straight blade, because it's less sensitive to wobbliness.

I hold my razor by the middle of the scales and arc my hand up or down as I slide the razor down the hone. Do the same thing coming back. Because I don't have to worry about keeping the razor flat on the hone this is a trivial maneuver to pull off, you just need reasonably snug scales. I do the same thing with my straight blades, I just have to be a lot more precise.

For "negative pressure" I do the same thing, I just set the scales so they're slightly behind the spine to help counterbalance the razor's weight. That's a lot easier than trying to maintain constant milligram-centimeter levels of torque on the shank while simultaneously doing all the other things right too.

X,

Maybe it's because I haven't seen how this is supposed to work in person, but what you were describing seemed to be the same as what I was trying to describe.

Help me out here--does the angle of the blade (in other words, the toe-to-heel angle, NOT the angle of the edge vs. the surface of the hone) change at all during your stroke?

What I'm not getting is how you change the point of contact without slightly changing the relative positions of the toe and heel. :shrug:

I have managed to hone smiling blades without any difficulty; maybe I'm just not describing it well.

Josh

X,

After carefully rereading your post, I think I get it. Is the main thing I have wrong the part about having the tip leading at the end of the stroke?

So you start with the heel leading, and end with the heel leading, but the angle is less drastic at the end than it was at the beginning?

As I think about it, I don't actually do what I was describing. My variation on this method is to add a rolling motion to the X-stroke, ending with about 1/3 of the blade on the hone. If I'm really having trouble with the very tip of the toe, I'll sometimes bring even more of the blade off the hone, but you have to be really careful with that...

I'm going to try to mock up a graphic to see if I'm understanding you correctly.

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

After carefully rereading your post, I think I get it. Is the main thing I have wrong the part about having the tip leading at the end of the stroke?

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

So you start with the heel leading, and end with the heel leading, but the angle is less drastic at the end than it was at the beginning?

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No. The angle is the same.

Think of it this way, although a disclaimer must be issued that what I'm describing will sound too drastic for actual honing. Rather than have the blade at a perfectly horizontal axis, tip the tip of the blade up at the begining above the stone, and roll the tip down throughout the stroke so the heel is tilted up and off the hone at the end. Or, one could say lift the heel up throughout the stroke.

X

Oooohhhhhh... I think I'm following you now. So the entire spine isn't flat along the stone during the stroke, but parts of it are slightly raised?

I'm having a hard time visualizing how you can alter the point of contact without changing the blade angle or using an X-stroke.

This graphic represents how I hone a smiling blade. I keep the spine flat throughout the stroke. Do you think this will overhone the blade? I'm not sure why it would...

Thanks for clarifying this--good discussion.

Josh

If it's a smiling blade and you're using the actual Rolling Hone technique it shouldn't increase the amount that the tip gets honed since different parts of the blade are on the hone for approximately the same amounrt of time. Just the angle of the striations would change on the blade, which is still something I'd recommend against. If it's a 'flat' edge, I think you'll be over honing.

The "Contact Zone" you identify is about right, but that's NOT my technique where you pust the tip forward.

Another disclaimer. honing is rightly considered an art form and each artist finds his own way.

X

X,

I edited the graphic so it doesn't claim to represent your techique. :)

I'm going to grab a smiling blade tonight and see if I can figure out how your approach works. I understand it in theory, I think, but just can't see how the motion goes. Maybe next time I try to describe it I'll get it right...

I see what you mean about overhoning a flat blade, but I'm not sure I agree. I have a 3-inch Norton, so the tip is basically on the hone for the entire stroke. (I know, I know, this is an entirely different discussion...) Somehow my stroke compensates for this because I'm able to get even edges on straight blades.

So it seems like the approach I put in the graphic is some kind of hybrid--does that mean I get to come up with my own cool name for it? :)

I'm going to go sit at the back of the classroom now...

Josh

Wll, I can't remember who coined the term Rolling Hone first, but it wasn't me. I think Nenad actually came up with an amazingly clear graphic of it.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...bs/WBCrv_4.jpg
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...bs/WBCrv_2.jpg
http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...bs/WBCrv_3.jpg

You can zoom in for better view here.

X

Wow...good info guys thanks for sharing that. It'll come in handy having had this discussed here. I'm still having some trouble with this blade I'm working on though, even after working the toe half on the 1K to even out the bevel into a single full length bevel I'm still not getting the whole thing sharp yet. The heel half still cuts hair nicely (after a couple of pyramids) but the toe half just runs right over the hair without doing anything at all. I can't see any signs of a bad bevel, but I lack a microscope and all I have for magnification purposes is a magnifying glass. Are there any suggestions for what I can do to try working the kinks out further? Like should I go through a couple of the aggressive pyramids maybe three sets to see if things even out?

I'd say do a couple dozen laps on the 4k only, working hard for evenness all along the edge and equal on both sides, Then do a full pyramid starting at 3/5, 5/5 etc. up to 10/5, 15/5, 10/5 and back down again. Gradually ease off the pressure toward the end to ultra light. Report any differences.

X

Josh, when doing the rock-and-roll technique your hand winds up making a vertical X along the side of the hone. Whether the heel leads or the razor is straight across the hone doesn't matter, but whatever you choose this remains constant all the way down the hone.

Well X, I took your advice...kinda...in that I did about 25 passes along the entire blade edge on the 1K then went through a major pyramid (my term for doing an aggressive pyramid that runs directly into a conservative). I did this in about an hour last night while watching Modern Marvels last night before I went to bed, and by the time I stopped I had this bad boy cutting hairs pretty much the whole way down the blade.

Unfortunately I'm not able to get my blades to HHT, so all of MY feedback is whether or not it'll take hair off my arm (or most recently my shin) and how well/easily it does it. Anyhow, I was relatively pleased with its performance last night so I decided to brave the dangers and give it a test shave today so here's my evaluation of progress so far.

While definitely not my most COMFORTABLE shave, this beast did a really good job. Everything came off nice and smooth, though running the blade down my face left it feeling kinda raw or scratchy. I think maybe a few more pyramids might help smooth that aspect up but for the moment I managed a two pass (with/against) shave with some touch up all with this razor with only a couple of weepers on my upper lip (so far I get those with any of my razors).

I think in an effort to smooth things up I'm going to do a couple dozen passes on the 4K tonight after work to try and clean up and scratches that might still exist from the 1K work and then do another major pyramid to see if it doesn't get just a little bit sharper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gawker

I think in an effort to smooth things up I'm going to do a couple dozen passes on the 4K tonight after work to try and clean up and scratches that might still exist from the 1K work and then do another major pyramid to see if it doesn't get just a little bit sharper.

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If you don't have one yet you might want to pick up one of the little $10 60x-100x microscopes from Radio Shack. They are a very cheap tool that are very useful when diagnosing honing problems. At maximum magnification you can easily see the striations from the coarser grits as well as any microchips in the edge and and partially formed bevels as well.

I finally* found this superb thread discussing the famous "rolling" honing technique, so I'm topping it so others can benefit from my discovery . . .

* It's hard to find with the search function because the thread title ain't descriptive and the word rolling is used in a lot of threads!