Honing Journey

Figured I'd make a thread about my journey into honing. I just had my Norton 4000/8000 arrive, along with my DMT 325. I lapped both sides, following Glen's video. That went without problems. The actual honing is where I'm having issues, which is to be expected, since I am a beginner...

Let me show you the candidates:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...ml#post1187702

I started with the Wade and Butcher. It's a wedge so of course I knew I shouldn't start with it, but I was eager to shave with it, since it's the "cream of the crop" of my new lot. My dream razor. All I ended up doing was creating an uneven bevel. It was taking forever to cut metal, so I ended up taking it to the DMT for some strokes just to speed up the process. It cut faster, but still uneven. I should mention I was using tape, at first one layer, then two. Finally I set aside the W&B and went to the Dubl Duck. Much easier to work with. I did about 40 circles and 20 strokes on the 4k, then 15 strokes on the 8k. Shaved my arm hair decently, so I went ahead and cleaned up, as my wife was fussing about something called dinner being ready. Shaved with it this morning on my WTG pass, and it was not that great. Finished with my Sheaf Works that was pro-honed by Larry at Whipped Dog. The Dubl Duck cut hair, but just isn't quite where it should be.

I will return to it tonight when I get off work... any advice for a new honer like myself?

Stay with the DD and keep adjusting the process until you have it down pat and repeatable...

Go back through this thread looking for the tricks and tips

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stay with the DD and keep adjusting the process until you have it down pat and repeatable...

Go back through this thread looking for the tricks and tips

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

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Awesome, thanks for the fast reply, Glen! I have looked through the thread but it was hard to find good posts where folks actually described their process and what worked for them. I will look harder, though. Thanks again.

Just for clarity, you set the bevel on the 4k, right? Or was it already decently set and ready to go to the 4k for refinement?

Im not an expert. But I would learn the bevel setting stone. Have a shave ready razor to compare to. Stay on the bevel setter until it cuts arm hair through the whole edge. The bevel is all the sharpness, going up in grit is just polishing. Strop it and make a wtg pass on your cheek. . If it cuts all of it, its set. The shave will feel rough but should cut. Then onto your other hones.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

Just for clarity, you set the bevel on the 4k, right? Or was it already decently set and ready to go to the 4k for refinement?

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I have just the 4k/8k, and set the bevel on the 4k. I definitely need to revisit it, though. I heard you can set bevels on the 4k, so I opted not to get the 1k, at least not right now. Funds were tight, so I got what I felt like I absolutely needed. Plus the Norton 4/8 thread Glen posted proves it can all be done with this one combo stone. I just need more practice.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Im not an expert. But I would learn the bevel setting stone. Have a shave ready razor to compare to. Stay on the bevel setter until it cuts arm hair through the whole edge. The bevel is all the sharpness, going up in grit is just polishing. Strop it and make a wtg pass on your cheek. . If it cuts all of it, its set. The shave will feel rough but should cut. Then onto your other hones.

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Okay, cool. Thanks for this advice. I will try doing this tonight!

Can't add more to what has been said but just reinforce to stay with the DD till you get it sorted. It will be easier than working on the wedge. For the wedge you can take a gander at http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html for some ideas as to how to go about honing one. There is an excel document there that will help you determine how much tape to use on the spine and it was a hrlp in that regard to me in honing a wedge.

Bob

Like bill3152 said, you've got to make sure that the bevel is properly set before moving to the next stone. It took me quite a while to finally learn when a bevel was set and when it wasn't. Thanks to a couple of different people, along with Glen and Lynn's honing videos I finally started getting good edges on a regular basis. Here's where I'm going to buck the trend a little, though. If you've gotten used to shaving with pro-honed edges, you're going to have a very difficult time getting an 8k edge into the same ballpark as what you're accustomed to. It's not impossible, but it is a difficult task. For me, even the best 8k edge in the world will tear my face up. If you have some CrOx, you might give your 8k edge a few laps on that and see if it helps.

Patience is key.

Bevel setting is key.

Even pressure is key.

Learning from your successes as well as mistakes is key.

Having fun is key.

Getting a great shave from your first success is priceless!!

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Originally Posted by Chreees

I have just the 4k/8k, and set the bevel on the 4k. I definitely need to revisit it, though. I heard you can set bevels on the 4k, so I opted not to get the 1k, at least not right now. Funds were tight, so I got what I felt like I absolutely needed. Plus the Norton 4/8 thread Glen posted proves it can all be done with this one combo stone. I just need more practice.

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Yeah, you can definitely set bevels on the 4K, which is what makes the 4/8k combo such a versatile stone. I was just curious if you were refining a bevel that had been set and needed a bit of touch up work or setting it from the get go.

My understanding (and I'm definitely no expert... still learning myself) is that when you're setting the bevel one of many things to look for is if you're getting black marks on the stone while setting the bevel. If so, than it's not set yet.

The good thing about that bright white 4k side is that you can see this reeeeeal easy. I know you said you were using tape on the W&B, but if you were on the DD too, the only thing touching the stone, as far as bare metal, should have been the bevel. If it was still leaving black marks, you definitely have more work to do there.

Again, I'm still a novice, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Any more experienced folks, please correct me if I'm mistaken about something, as I certainly don't want to steer anyone wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Patience is key.

Bevel setting is key.

Even pressure is key.

Learning from your successes as well as mistakes is key.

Having fun is key.

Getting a great shave from your first success is priceless!!

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All true. Lynn's video on this topic posted @ Gentleman's Gazette was indispensable
to my razors getting straightened out and usable in a HURRY!

Thanks, Lynn!

Could you post a link to Lynn's video? I searched for it but came up empty.

Learning to hone on a "dream" razor can create a nightmare. Flea market razors exist for a reason.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Can't add more to what has been said but just reinforce to stay with the DD till you get it sorted. It will be easier than working on the wedge. For the wedge you can take a gander at http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html for some ideas as to how to go about honing one. There is an excel document there that will help you determine how much tape to use on the spine and it was a hrlp in that regard to me in honing a wedge.

Bob

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Thanks for the link. I will save it and check it out once I've gotten some practice on other razors first.

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Originally Posted by myersn024

Like bill3152 said, you've got to make sure that the bevel is properly set before moving to the next stone. It took me quite a while to finally learn when a bevel was set and when it wasn't. Thanks to a couple of different people, along with Glen and Lynn's honing videos I finally started getting good edges on a regular basis. Here's where I'm going to buck the trend a little, though. If you've gotten used to shaving with pro-honed edges, you're going to have a very difficult time getting an 8k edge into the same ballpark as what you're accustomed to. It's not impossible, but it is a difficult task. For me, even the best 8k edge in the world will tear my face up. If you have some CrOx, you might give your 8k edge a few laps on that and see if it helps.

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Your words are both discouraging and challenging at the same time, haha. You're right, I have only shaved with pro-honed edges thus far, but I do hope to be able to properly set my own bevels and get great shaves off of the 8k. I always do enjoy a good challenge. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Patience is key.

Bevel setting is key.

Even pressure is key.

Learning from your successes as well as mistakes is key.

Having fun is key.

Getting a great shave from your first success is priceless!!

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Haha, no doubt! Thanks for your words of wisdom, Lynn. I will keep them in mind when I whip out the hone tonight.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

Yeah, you can definitely set bevels on the 4K, which is what makes the 4/8k combo such a versatile stone. I was just curious if you were refining a bevel that had been set and needed a bit of touch up work or setting it from the get go.

My understanding (and I'm definitely no expert... still learning myself) is that when you're setting the bevel one of many things to look for is if you're getting black marks on the stone while setting the bevel. If so, than it's not set yet.

The good thing about that bright white 4k side is that you can see this reeeeeal easy. I know you said you were using tape on the W&B, but if you were on the DD too, the only thing touching the stone, as far as bare metal, should have been the bevel. If it was still leaving black marks, you definitely have more work to do there.

Again, I'm still a novice, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Any more experienced folks, please correct me if I'm mistaken about something, as I certainly don't want to steer anyone wrong.

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There certainly were black marks being left on my 4k still, even with the Dubl Duck, but especially the wedge W&B! This is good to know, and should help me get a feel of where I'm at. I've heard that you should be able to do the HHT and it be successful at the 4k level before moving on to the 8k. Is this true? If so, I feel like it will take a lot of time. But as Lynn said, patience is key! Tonight I will be set up in the house at the kitchen table, compared to working out in the shop standing up. Should be a lot more comfortable, and allow me to relax and keep my patience.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy51

Could you post a link to Lynn's video? I searched for it but came up empty.

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I would love for the link to be posted as well. Thanks!

Sorry for the double post but it wouldn't let me quote your post as well...

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Originally Posted by ace

Learning to hone on a "dream" razor can create a nightmare. Flea market razors exist for a reason.

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Exactly why I set down the W&B and went with the Dubl Duck! I have a couple others I recently obtained that I may start out with tonight- probably the John Weis or Engels. Or my Spike, but it's kinda on the wedgey side as well.

Good bevel on 4k and good stropping WILL get you hht. If it doesnt something is wrong. Maybe the honing or maybe the stropping.

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Originally Posted by Chreees

I've heard that you should be able to do the HHT and it be successful at the 4k level before moving on to the 8k. Is this true? !

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The HHT is the most useless abomination ever brought into the straight shaving world... :banghead:

Unless you have calibrated it to your hair you are wasting your time, try a DE edge for an idea of calibration on every "Feel or Hair" test..

Better yet it means NOTHING to anyone else, just because I can get an HHT that I have calibrated it doesn't relate to your hair or your edge, and then to take it even farther with stages of HHT is even more ridicules ..

Basic first question,,, How does the HHT work for you on a new DE blade ??? if you can answer that then at least you are not totally in the dark...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The HHT is the most useless abomination ever brought into the straight shaving world... :banghead:

Unless you have calibrated it to your hair you are wasting your time, try a DE edge for an idea of calibration on every "Feel or Hair" test..

Better yet it means NOTHING to anyone else, just because I can get an HHT that I have calibrated it doesn't relate to your hair or your edge, and then to take it even farther with stages of HHT is even more ridicules ..

Basic first question,,, How does the HHT work for you on a new DE blade ??? if you can answer that then at least you are not totally in the dark...

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I'll admit Glen, I have never "passed" the HHT with any of my razors, all of which have been pro-honed thus far. They still shaved very well. This is why I asked, as I have seen it said many times a razor must "pass the HHT test" to properly shave. I'm glad you responded to my question. I have never even touched a DE blade, so I can't answer your question regarding it, unfortunately. I'm an oddball who went from electrics to straights, haha.

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Originally Posted by Chreees

I'll admit Glen, I have never "passed" the HHT with any of my razors, all of which have been pro-honed thus far.

1. That should tell you quite a bit

They still shaved very well.

2. Ah Ha !!!! :rofl2:


I have seen it said many times a razor must "pass the HHT test" to properly shave.

3. Total BS, you already know that to be untrue

I have never even touched a DE blade, so I can't answer your question regarding it, unfortunately.

4. Go buy a cheap pack of Persona's at Wally World and try all the tests with a fresh edge and get a base for everything the TNT, TPT, AHT, HHT, etc: etc:

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That's all I got hehehe

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

That's all I got hehehe

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Lol! You're funny. I asked the question anyway to see what the response would be... As I always suspected it to not be the case, but was still curious anyway as I never really paid it much attention before, considering I wasn't the one honing my blades.

I have been wanting to try DEs anyway, so I will pick up some soon! Thanks, Glen.

Its just another way of determining sharpness. It doesn't address smooth at all. I use it at certain stages and I find it useful in that it confirms I am progressing in sharpness. My family is Mediterranean so my daughters hair is exactly like mine. I'm sure there are some hair that may be too fine. Its another tool if you choose to learn it or use it. But there are other tests and the only real test is the shave test.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

The good thing about that bright white 4k side is that you can see this reeeeeal easy. I know you said you were using tape on the W&B, but if you were on the DD too, the only thing touching the stone, as far as bare metal, should have been the bevel. If it was still leaving black marks, you definitely have more work to do there.

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I don't know how this myth originated..The abraded particles don't magically get bleached. ;)
If you rub steel on a white stone it will leave black marks.

I have never heard that one before. Indeed, steel leaves a dark gray streak on white.

Uh oh, conflicting info... Haha. Makes sense that it would leave black marks regardless.

In other news, I honed the Dubl Duck and John Weis tonight. I used more pressure on the 4k, and seemed to make a lot of progress. I kept in mind the information here and I think I advanced a bit. Shaved leg hair a lot better (used my leg tonight as the wife was joking on my bare spot on my arm yesterday, lol). I will keep at it and report back! Working late tomorrow night and going to Atlanta to see Matchbox Twenty and the Goo Goo Dolls this weekend, so it'll probably be Monday night before I can hit the hones again. :(

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I don't know how this myth originated..The abraded particles don't magically get bleached. ;)
If you rub steel on a white stone it will leave black marks.

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Haha... I didn't mean disappear completely. Lemur said it best herehttp://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-question.html

I meant once you move up to a finer grit you should be polishing the bevel, not creating lots of swarf because you're still cutting the bevel. The amount of swarf should be less and less the further through the progression you go, correct?

My apologies for the confusion. :)

Yes and no. It depends on the hone. Natural hones hardly build up swarf at least it doesn't stick to the stone. My chosera 10k stays pretty clean, my naniwa 12k and suehiro 20k does get some buildup, nothing major. The faster the hone, the more swarf as the more metal is removed. Wipe or rinse the blade between grits as this will keep the hones a little cleaner. You should do that anyway as you risk taking a lower grit particle to the finer hone.

Whew, glad we got that worked out, haha.

Yes, I always be sure to wipe the blade off before moving to the next grit. Heck, I have been even wiping the blade when switching between circles and strokes.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

Haha... I didn't mean disappear completely. Lemur said it best herehttp://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-question.html

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Yep sums it up nicely. Fine stone = less laps & fine swarf. A 4k tho will mostly cut like a 4k. :)

Oz... You're the man. :)

Update! I am getting there! I shaved with both the John Weis C.S.P.K Trademark razor and the Dubl Duck razor this morning. Did half of my face with one, the other half with the other. The Weis is I'd say, maybe halfway there? It definitely needs to return to the hones. The Dubl Duck, however, was almost there. It gave me an acceptable shave- I'd say somewhere between if I had just done a WTG pass and a 5 o' clock shadow. Basically, after two passes (one WTG, one XTG), I had some stubble left. It's the weekend and I'm going out of town this afternoon, so no big deal. I didn't bother going over it with either of my two shave-ready razors. I am anxious to get back to the hones... Gotta wait until Monday!

So I still plan on honing tonight after work, but figured I'd update that I purchased a finishing stone. Been looking at getting a Naniwa 12k further down the road after I somewhat-master the 8k edge shave, but I stumbled upon what I felt was a pretty good deal, so I had to jump on it. I researched it a good bit, and it seemed like a worthy purchase:

Free Shipping Natural Welsh Slate Tri Hone Razor Sharpening Stone Set 3 Hones | eBay

I messaged the seller and purchased the finest hone + slurry stone, the "15k+," for a good price (a third of the cost to purchase all three). Reviews show more than plenty of people are happy with these Welsh slate stones. So I figured why not try one. I have a Chinese "12k" barbers hone and it is decent, so I'm hoping this is better than it to get a refined edge once I learn how to shave off of the 8k. Perhaps I will no longer desire the 12k Naniwa. We shall see. Anyway, thoughts on this purchase?

I will post further updates after tonight's honing session...

EDIT: Unsure why the link takes you to eBay's home page, but I'm sure you can find what I'm talking about easily enough...

So I experimented with the pyramid honing method last night, on three razors- the Dubl Duck, the Weis, and the Engels. All three seem to be very sharp now, and LOOK good. I am going to strop them tonight, probably 100 laps each, and test shave in the morning. I'll post my results afterward.