In praise of micro bevels for problem razors

So far, I have honed something in the ballpark of 50 razors now, from bevel setter to finisher. I prefer not to tape my razors.

Of these razors, I have found only two that I could not get "just right." One was an Ontario 6/8 spike that took hours of work over a few days on the 1k just to get the bevel set. The other is a C. Myers and Sons 6/8 round point. I got these razors shaving well enough, but still not quite up to snuff, so I put them away for a while.

I recently re-visited some threads about micro bevels, so I decided, "Why not?" I threw on two layers of tape and gave both of them 20 light laps on the Naniwa 12k... Wow! Now they are smooth as silk and shave with the best of them. That little change of angle at the end made all the difference.

I know this is not earth shattering information that hasn't been said before. But it's another tool in the honing arsenal to help perfect those problem razors. Just remember to keep track of which razors receive what treatment!

I find using a 6 micron dmt (4K equivalent) perfect for straightening out razors like this. Its well worn and I use some dish soap. Then I dull on glass and re set with my chosera 1k and up from there.ive done what your saying before, I just prefer to stay on it where the tape isnt necesary.

You want to taste defeat and humiliation? I'll send you my TI Damascus. After a few weeks messing with that baby you'll be thinking you can't even spell the word hone and be begging for me to take it back.

Thank you for confirming my decision to use tape all the time :<0) I think it cuts down on a lot of :banghead:

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Thank you for confirming my decision to use tape all the time :<0) I think it cuts down on a lot of :banghead:

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+1...I've been using tape (1 or 2 layers depending on the blade) since day 1 of razor honing. I'm a firm believer!

WP34

Let throw a question out to the group and hopefully someone with some experience can answer this. I've had more than a few razors that were in this category. I have one right now that I've been struggling with for some time. Now as we say, 90% of the job is in the bevel set right? Ok. So what is actually happening in my estimation is that I'm stripping off enough steel to have set a bevel on any other razor but that steel itself is not holding that edge and crumbling away before I approach the desired result. Or its crumbling away in the subsequent polishing stages. Adding a layer or two of tape increases the angle, allows a microbevel to form, and is thus stronger than it otherwise would be without it. I get that. My question is, why is this happening? Is it a flaw in the blade geometry? Is there something wrong with the steel in that its inferior and doesn't take a good edge? Or is there something the person in front of the hones is doing (or not doing) that could avoid this? Thoughts?

Maybe it got hot and lost it's temper sometime in it's life. I have 2 razors that just will not get shave ready. If I do get them that way they dull before I finish using them. Has to be the steel is ruined. It's like trying to use a sweeny todd.

Tape will only bring the edge a tiny bit closer than without it. The only benefit for tape IMO is to save some spine wear gold wash etc. That tiny bit IMO willonot shore up bad steel. Multiple layers will change the angle some more. The blade was designed to wear at the spine and edge the same to keep the angle constant more or less. Im gonna shut up now and see where this goes!

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

My question is, why is this happening? Is it a flaw in the blade geometry? Is there something wrong with the steel in that its inferior and doesn't take a good edge? Or is there something the person in front of the hones is doing (or not doing) that could avoid this? Thoughts?

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Since you say the edge is holding after you apply the tape then that leads the answer to Geometry, however that might not be the entire answer..

If you have exceptional steel it can perhaps hold the edge at a lower angle :shrug: it would knida depend on what the spine looks like IMO measure the actual angle so you have an idea of what is going on.. If you come up with something on the low side of 15° then you have a pretty good idea of the issue...

As you can see from my answer, often you have to look at the entire situation to narrow down the problem...

Steel
Angle
Hone
Pressure

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Tape will only bring the edge a tiny bit closer than without it. The only benefit for tape IMO is to save some spine wear gold wash etc. That tiny bit IMO willonot shore up bad steel. Multiple layers will change the angle some more. The blade was designed to wear at the spine and edge the same to keep the angle constant more or less. Im gonna shut up now and see where this goes!

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http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html

I'm definitely not an expert on steel, geometry, pressure, or hones -- but -- since I started taping spines I get more consistent bevels with less work -- and no one despises work more than I do.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You want to taste defeat and humiliation? I'll send you my TI Damascus. After a few weeks messing with that baby you'll be thinking you can't even spell the word hone and be begging for me to take it back.

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I'll take you up on that! Practice practice practice...

Edit: I didn't want this to become a tape battle or a work vs lazy thread haha. I guess this is just a non-taper confessing he has found some good use for tape lately, and trying to spread the word. Why don't I use tape (usually)? I don't know... My first razors weren't taped, and I didn't feel like having to keep track of things, so I just went without...even after I started restoring old guys with major wear. I just hoped that spine wear would work with the shrinking the blade width to maintain the original edge geometry. It's worked so far. I've just had to put in more...well...work.

I've always assumed I'd have to use tape one day on those restore projects that have extreme hone wear. Funny enough, These two razors both seem to be NOS (the C. Myers definitely was; the Ontario didn't show a single sign of ever touching the hones). No pitting whatsoever; the steel doesn't even show the slightest patina or spotting. But hours and hours on the Chosera 1k wasn't yielding bevels that I loved. They would shave arm hair, but with just a tad more pressure than I liked. So screw it, micro bevel on the finisher and VOILA! Excellent shavers!

Some say pastes can be a crutch for poor honing. I see micro bevels as a crutch for people who have a bevel 99% complete, but don't wan't to put in another 6 hours on the 1k for that last 1%. Still, some swear by micro bevels. For now, I'll see how these edges hold, but I'm very happy with the results thus far.

Thanks for the reminder. I have had tape save me a couple times.
Although, I need to stay vigilant on the water. The last razor took me a while to get though (maybe hour or two?) and water must have stayed near the tape line. I have now have some nice stains right where the tape was :(

I'm a tape it man through and through, long live the small even bevel.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Since you say the edge is holding after you apply the tape then that leads the answer to Geometry, however that might not be the entire answer..

If you have exceptional steel it can perhaps hold the edge at a lower angle :shrug: it would knida depend on what the spine looks like IMO measure the actual angle so you have an idea of what is going on.. If you come up with something on the low side of 15° then you have a pretty good idea of the issue...

As you can see from my answer, often you have to look at the entire situation to narrow down the problem...

Steel
Angle
Hone
Pressure

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The first razor that I had trouble with was a brand new Hart Steel. Being brand new, I'd like to rule out the angle since the spine was brand new and had no wear. I'd also like to think that it was not the steel since it was brand new. But out of the box the edge was, meh. It shaved but it didn't have the level of sharpness I had come to expect from a professionally sharpened blade. So I decided to give it a go myself. I initially used one layer of tape as that is what Hart states they use during the honing process. I tried touching up first on the 8k. No real improvement. So I went to 1k assuming that perhaps the bevel was not great to begin with. I was getting a bevel but it never seemed as good as other razors I had honed to that point. I thought maybe the heavy grind had something to do with it. I went along to 4k, and 8k and the edge never seemed to be any better than when I first got it. Two layers went on (1, 4, 8 and 12k). A little better but after a few shaves, its pulling again. Finally, three layers (1,4, 8, and 12K). Now its popping hairs on my arm instead of pushing them over. Its shaves without pulling. I may have given it a couple too many passes on the 12k as it was a tad harsh but the second shave seemed to see some of that disappear. Third shave and its still seems to be going well. I use the Hart as an example since I should be able to rule out 1/2 of the concerns (angle and steel) since its brand new when I'm doing this. That leaves the hone and the person honing it. BUT, I am a little perplexed because it arrived with a sub par edge to begin with and I was not able to push beyond that until the third layer of tape went on. Now, it should be obvious that I'm no expert or I'd be answering these questions rather than asking them. So maybe pressure was an issue? But after reading the thread about hitting the wall and climbing over, the suggestion to add (or remove) a layer and/or going up or down a grit seemed to shake the problem loose. So for that I'm happy but I'm not really sure what is/was happening where the steel hits the stone. I'll spend some time with the link you added and see where it takes me with the other razor in question (PJM C-MON Special).

Wouldnt a dmt be able to tame that bad boy and establish a flat prebevel before the hones? I know sometimes its more complicated than that though. But having never worked on a razor such as the one your talking about, i really have no clue.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You want to taste defeat and humiliation? I'll send you my TI Damascus. After a few weeks messing with that baby you'll be thinking you can't even spell the word hone and be begging for me to take it back.

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I will take that bet. How long do I get to keep it if I succeed? I look forward to shaving with such a fine blade! :tameshigiri:

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Thank you for confirming my decision to use tape all the time :<0) I think it cuts down on a lot of :banghead:

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? Using tape all the time wouldn't create a micro-bevel; it would create a normal bevel with a slightly larger included angle. Do you mean you always finish off with tape?

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I use the Hart as an example since I should be able to rule out 1/2 of the concerns (angle and steel) since its brand new when I'm doing this. That leaves the hone and the person honing it. BUT, I am a little perplexed because it arrived with a sub par edge to begin with and I was not able to push beyond that until the third layer of tape went on. Now, it should be obvious that I'm no expert or I'd be answering these questions rather than asking them. So maybe pressure was an issue? But after reading the thread about hitting the wall and climbing over, the suggestion to add (or remove) a layer and/or going up or down a grit seemed to shake the problem loose. So for that I'm happy but I'm not really sure what is/was happening where the steel hits the stone. I'll spend some time with the link you added and see where it takes me with the other razor in question (PJM C-MON Special).

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Search "Hart Razor Bevel" angle on here while you are at it :)

See assumptions can mess with you, as you are going to learn from the search early Hart razors had a bevel angle that was more in the 13 degree range and many had an issue with holding an edge.. This was improved on as production moved forward, I have not measured a Hart in a couple of years, but again if I were you I would simply measure the angle to see where it is really at to start then go from there..

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Originally Posted by Magpie

I will take that bet. How long do I get to keep it if I succeed? I look forward to shaving with such a fine blade! :tameshigiri:

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That particular razor is famous for it's hard steel and the difficulty in getting it shave ready (they were never shave ready when delivered new). Though they last a very long time once honed up even touchups are a major pain. Send me copy of your honemeister certificate level 5 and I'll send the razor your way.:)

I'll second that, I had big problems with an Hart first generation razor, very frustrating, I eventually got the razor sharp from toe to heel I had to use two layers of tape and even though I got a fairly even bevel I wasn't convinced the geometry of the razor was correct, not a razor I would advise a newbie honer to try out may frustrate the hell out of him.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Search "Hart Razor Bevel" angle on here while you are at it :)

See assumptions can mess with you, as you are going to learn from the search early Hart razors had a bevel angle that was more in the 13 degree range and many had an issue with holding an edge.. This was improved on as production moved forward, I have not measured a Hart in a couple of years, but again if I were you I would simply measure the angle to see where it is really at to start then go from there..

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I picked up a caliper off of Amazon this morning. I suppose that should be a standard piece of equipment in my honing tool box. It could potentially save some time up front by taking a few up front measurements.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Send me copy of your honemeister certificate level 5 and I'll send the razor your way.:)

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I stopped at Level 3 when I realized it was just a "pyramid scheme" :rofl2:

With the millions of razors that were produced, I'm sure they were many Monday morning razors that were slightly off in the grind. I don't know if they knew about tape for correcting the bevel angle in the old days, but I'm guessing they didn't. I've seen many old razors with no hone wear, but needed at least one or two layers of tape to get the edge popping. My guess is that once the original users couldn't get a good edge, the razor was placed aside and not used until this tape generation came along and could get it right. I've seen many wedges that had bevel angles all over the place. With the sheer numbers of razors that were produced, you can be sure there were defects. Just my two cents.

Or more than likely they were honed spine off the hone. Ive had my share of them.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I picked up a caliper off of Amazon this morning. I suppose that should be a standard piece of equipment in my honing tool box. It could potentially save some time up front by taking a few up front measurements.

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So the caliper arrived today. Although nothing was under the 15 degree angle, all of the razors that were giving me trouble were right at the 15 degree mark. The PJM that I mentioned previously was one such razor. I added enough tape to bring the angle very close to 20 degrees. BAM! Problem solved. I'm now convinced that a caliper and the angle calculation are vital tools for honing.

Level 5 HMC?

Good Lord, in California you can perform marriages with a level 5… or was that a class 5 Drivers License.