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Does tape adversely affect hones? I imagine it will clog the hone up meaning that lapping is required more often, and more heavily, is this the case, or am I worrying about nothing, I ask because I have a frameback that already has some honewear on the frame and I don't want to exacerbate it but I don't really like the idea of taping.
I only refresh so I have a 10k naniwa, and a couple of slates.
Thanks.
I only use tape when setting the bevel on my Chosera 1K. I have not found any clogging by using tape. Use tape when you want, although you don't really need tape for high grit stones like yours.
I was going to give you my total scientific explanation for why I believe it will cause no harm. Then I remembered, I am not a scientist. So I will say that I always use tape on a white and yellow colored 4/8 Norton and it has never caused a problem. I do give my stones a quick lap or 4 with the lapping stone while I am honing. I would think the finer grits would be even less worrisome but like I said,,,, I ain't no scientist. :<0)
I do see tape coming off on my 1k but once again a quick lap or 2 and it's all clean again. I will be watching to see what the real knowledgeable ones argue about. :D
Well I certainly won't put myself in the 'real knowledgeable ones' category, but for what it's worth, I use tape through the whole progression and have noticed no issues at all on any of my hones. Like 10Pups, I too give my hones a quick once-over with a DMT prior to use so I suspect any residual crud is wheeched away before it can accumulate and become an issue.
And if you're just using it on one specific razor, I can't see it being an issue. Guys who hone a heck of a lot more razors than I use tape without it being an issue, so I wouldn't worry about it.
EDIT: forgot to add this. Buy good tape. The cheap stuff can more or less disintegrate. Since switching to good stuff (I like 3M 700 tape) that hasn't been an issue.
You will get a little transfer if you use the cheaper tapes, but if you stick with 3M super 88 then these are very good quality and extremely hard wearing and I don't get any transfer, but my advice would be if you are setting the bevel on a 1K stone after you finish setting the bevel remove and use a fresh piece of tape, this should then last right through the progression.
I'm sure this has been answered before, but wouldn't you not reach your edge on the higher grit stones if you remove the tape after 1k? Seems like the shallower angle would prevent you from reaching the apex? Just curious... I haven't tried it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy
I tape every razor and have no problems with tape residue or anything else that people seem to be worried about. I get my tape in 10 roll packs from Harbor Freight. I have some very nice forged spines and gold plated spines and this is the reason I tape. Taping every blade gives me a consistent draw/drag and I like that feeling.
I have been doing this a long time and my edges are top notch one pass quality. Tape works well for me.
Try and get the original tape that the manufacture of your razor used, it has to be the best! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalCake
Yes
BUT
It doesn't matter, say you are using a 1-4-8-12 progression, if you set the bevel and do the hard lifting with tape at the 1k then dump the tape at the 4k it only takes about 20 laps and the MINUTE difference in angle is gone and you are honing without tape... You have to get your GOOD magnifier out and watch it happen sometime to understand just how small this angle change really is when you are talking in Microns at the edge... One layer of #700 tape doesn't even change the angle 1° and when you consider that this .67° change is occurring on an edge measured in less then 1/2 of 1 Micron you can understand how small we are talking :)
Thanks Glen. That makes sense and certainly makes it easier to be able to then do touch ups without having to tape!
Shane
Not sure that's J.A Hellberg used to use tape lemur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Who was the first razor honer to use tape? Is the answer J.A. Hellberg?Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Hey, you stole my post!Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
Glen.
Besides protecting the spine during honing .. What's the benefit of using tape? Layman storms I just read a six page post about this my head is spinning..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airportcopper
I have never figured out why Tape vs No tape is always a contention on all the forums,, If people would just do the actual tests and do the math, they would soon realize that there is no upside or downside... You can argue it for hours either way, which is what most of these threads turn into..
The only advantage that I have ever found besides protecting the spine is on razors that are borderline ready for a re-grind, you can't add steel but you can add a few pennies worth of tape to save a ton of grinding...
Basically they are your razors do as you wish
Aren't spine wear a good thing? To have the same angle even if the blade gets ground down. Like maintaning a primary bevel on knifes. I imagine if the temper are kinda even then the edge will be ground of more then the spine every time it's sharpened?
Can see the point in using the tape only with the fine stones, to get some edge to work on fast, but it's used mainly on the course stones?
Btw what kind of lupe are good in magnification terms?
I don't think excessive spine wear is a good thing because it alters the angle rather than maintaining it. If you consider that the optimum sharpening angle of round about 18 degrees is formed from the width of the spine and width of the blade, then excessive spine wear will considerably alter this formula so that you begin to get a much wider bevel - following this to a logical conclusion means that you end up back at a wedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar
There's a mathmatical formula for calculating how many layers of tape are required to get the right angle for honing (I believe it's on the Coticule site but may also be on the forum somewhere) so if you know the approximate width of spine, blade and tape it tells you how many layers to use.
Personally, I use tape more as a protection against hone wear and it's sometimes useful to just slightly change the bevel angle on difficult blades.
Basically it is to preserve a vintage razor, because they don't make them anymore. With the knowledge you can learn here, you can get alot of shaves before hitting the hones. I have had 50 shaves from a razor using just a strop, and there are others who have done much better than that. Add in pasted strops, and you can keep your razor in mint condition, with little or no hone wear. This will help maintain the value of you razor. A 30 x lupe is sufficient to see what is going on. Hope this helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar
I used to think that by using tape, I was not skilled enough as a honer(I don't consider myself a honemeister by a long stretch). When I saw Glen using tape, I knew it was ok for me to use it. I have a near wedge that I couldn't sharpen till I uses a double layer of tape. Now it shaves great.
Hi Ed,
I used one layer of tape to home that frameback, and I'd recommend you do the same. You may notice the frame is a little thin in parts; esp at the toe end. EVEN if the tape DOES clog hones (and I don't think it does; at least not that a couple of passes with a lapping stone or cleaning stone wouldn't sort) a hone can be replaced, that frameback can't.
Can I ask how far you are taking back the honing? I would highly suggest 20 laps on a Shapton 16k is really all it should need; I wouldn't think you'd need much more.
The Swedish steel is much harder than some; normally to refresh my edges i do 10 laps on the Shapton, but on my Swedish razors I do 20. I guess in a way this means more spine wear is possible.
Sure if you got all 'basic' you wouldn't use tape, but why wear the frame if you don't have to?
You'll also notice that razor has a very thin bevel, which seems common to framebacks. If you DON'T use tape, you'll need to re-set the bevel, otherwise you're just polishing the edges of my bevel, not making an edge.
Hope you don't mind me acting like a recently estranged mother...
What is hone wear? I think I know, but I am not 100% sure.
Is it wear on the razor or the wear on the hone?
For as much as some hones sell for, I can see why one might be concerned about wear to the hone.
Jody
I believe "hone wear" refers to the wear on the spine of the razor caused by honing without taping the spine. Even if you tape the spine the hone will need to flattened occasionally because it will wear regardless.
Bob
Aren't that spine wear?Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
I think the main problem with the terminology is that some folks are using it differently than others. To me at least, hone wear is wear to the grinding/honing apparatus, wear to the razor is spine wear. (When it is wear on the spine, obviously).
Bougth a 60-100x magnifier now. Bit to strong, but all I found. Funny to use :)
It's my baby now carl. :) no heavy honing, I am using a stone around 10k, and using maybe 10 strokes, don't worry Carl I'll treat her right. And after some research, I think I COULD make a new frame for it but it wouldn't necessarily look quite right. To be honest that was one of the things that had me in two minds about it, you know, once the frame gets too much wear it'll be knackered, but I am really enjoying using it now, I think 3 weeks exclusively it's moving up from 1.5 to 1 if you know what I mean Carl.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
All the info you might want to search is right here on SRP... I have done quite a bit of research into Tape myself over the years because of the many "Facts" people post. I suggest you take the time and actually test the theories yourself..
You will actually find a link in the thread I linked where we measured many razors, to test the claims of bevel angle and what they were designed for...
People took the time to test the spine vs the blade on some of the older razor for hardness differences, you should take a look at those conclusions too
But the best is to take your razors and your hones and take out the calipers and rulers, take careful measurements and add to the data base with real life facts :p
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html
Yea, that is exactly what is happening. To me I have always heard the expression that a razor shows a "excessive of hone wear" which indicates to me that the spine of the razor has been worn down over the years by the act of honing. OTH you can't worry about wearing a hone down you just keep it flat as possible and when it wears out you get another and start the cycle over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Bob
No probs at all. I think the info you've received about hone wear (spine wear, the terms may be used interchangeably) is essentially correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Do what you will but I'd still recommend tape, I can never see a reason NOT to tape, and I'd use a higher grit hone if you can get one.
No. Aren't is plural and spine is singular, therefore the question is incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar
Spine wear refers to excessive wear from honing. In my experience it results from a blade that is not quite right. If you have a good blade that sits squarely on a hone, then spine wear is minimal, consequently excessive or uneven spine wear suggests a problem blade.
To me hone wear and spine wear are synonymous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar
Is pedantic plural or singular?Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
And your point are?Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Yeah, give him a break! I know NOTHING about Nordic grammar! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo7
To the original topic...
TAPE...hones...clog? sad to say, YES! it has happened to me! totally gunked up my hones.
It took a while for me to figure out the problems. Problem one has already been addressed. CHEAP TAPE
Problem two, kind of surprised me.
OLD TAPE
It was not until I mentioned to my brother (NYC Housing Electrician) the problems I was having and he asked me what tape I was using and my answer was "a role you gave me when I first moved up here (9 years ago) and he told me how they toss old rolls away all the time because they lose stretch, and resilience, and the glue gets funky too.
So, if you tape, use good stuff, and not that old roll you had left over from a tool kit in your car trunk.
Well as a sparky I do have fairly new tape, but he is right, when tape gets old and hot the glue melts and sticks to the outside of the tape below it on the roll.
If new tape is not a problem then I will use it ON CARLS EX RAZOR just so be doesn't weep himself to sleep everynight :)
In all this talk about tape, I always think that everybody misses the fact that the amount of pressure you use while honing probably has a lot more effect on the razor than tape. Not so much on a wedge but definitely on a hollow. And if you have ever honed a wedge you know the tape is almost a must.