Curious to hear how you make the decision when it's time to move to the next stone....pretty certain I understand a lot of folks' indicators for bevel setters (TNT, TPT, even bevel across the blade)
But what are your indicators for coming off your middle stones like 4k? 8k?
I think I understand that finishers are as much an art form as anything, so deciding papers to be much based on user preference.
But what is not so clear, is when folks decide (and why) to come off the middle stones...
Thats is a tough one to answer. Basically when I first start on a stone the feedback of the razor has a certain feel to it. I will call that feeling dirty. As the edge gets to it's maximum smoothness for that stone the feedback is cleaner and smoother and start to feel kind of sticky or gummy on the stone. I may check it with a loop to make sure that the scratch patterns are even and the bevel should already be even and it should have already had an even shave. i check all those things at the 1k and never leave there until it's complete. So I guess the readers digest answer is feedback. Everyone will probably have there own tell tale.
Magnification And Scratch Pattern Along With How They "Feel" On The Stone Is How I Do It.
Not Sure If It Is "Right" But It Seems To Work For Me.....
I am going to give you the "Three Great Secrets of Honing"
We tell this to White Belt Kempo Students when they attain their 1st Yellow Belt too "The Three Great Secrets of Martial Arts"
Practice..
More Practice..
Practice it one more time...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html
Now in reality read that thread above, and try it, then once you get that move to you next stone and do it once again and the next and the next... Once you learn to adjust your honing so that every step yields an noticeable improvement then it all becomes really easy...
This like everything else in this hobby takes time and repetition it is boring and most people stop at "Good Enough" but all you have to do is invest the time and it all makes sense
Good question
When the US Supreme Court justices were attempting to come up with a definition of pornography in a case involving free speech, and trying to differeniate it from art or other forms of speech, they said, "you know it when you see it."
The same idea is true with honing. When do you move on to the next stone? You know it when you feel it. Not sure how else to answer.
Usually, when the missus comes over and taps me on the shoulder and says "when you gonna stop playing with that **censored**razor? I know it's time to move on.
3 is the number & the number shall be 3.
My 3 tests.
At bevel set the razor has to cut my armhair. Slight tug acceptable.
At mid level it has to cut my armhair with little to no tugging.
At polishing stage it needs to cut with no tugging.
Easy if you only use three stones . ;)
So the sticky, gummy feel occurs @ the 1k level? I'll have to take note of that next time I set a bevel....the few times I've done it, was a guessing game.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
The changes in the feedback are my telltale. The sticky sort of gummy yet clean feel is just how I'm describing what the later feedback feels like to me. It happens through the progression. That is when I check my edge on leg hair or a loop or both. Similar to what omniaru55 said. I don't go just on feel, perhaps some can, I'm not that confident or experienced. As far as complete start to finish edges go I've only done around 100. A relative beginner.
Great test! Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Thanks Glen....good stuff there albeit this would make honing a razor a multi day event for me...as a military guy, I don't have the time in the morning to hone - shave - hone - shave etc...but I see serious advantages to doing this on the weekends!Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
When testing the bevel off the 1K I make sure the blade can shave arm hair at the tip, middle and heal of the blade. After that I go by feel - when the blade has that "sticky" or "sucking" feel I move on - works for me...
-john
Thanks for this...just used this during tonight's honing of my Bergischer LoweQuote:
Originally Posted by ocelot27
I now go by feel. Sometimes I get it wrong and need to go back but all of this is told very clearly to me by a shave test if I'm unsure. Arm hair, hanging hair type of tests, and magnification don't really help me too much or tell me what I need to know. (edit; except for bevel setting) For those that can consistently rely on these easy tests on mid level stones I'm a bit jealous.
Before I was able to tell by feel I relied on the pyramid method. It's perfect for the guys that are still unsure when to move to the next stone.
i myself make sure the bevel is absolutely set as far as i can, so the 1k edge should shave leghair and armhair easily with little resistence.
after the bevel i do the same tests and if its improved i can choose to move on or get the most out of the curent stone.
I always try and finish with an edge that silently cuts leghair without a sound. those edges will wipe a beard away :)
If your bevels done right, it gives the edge 80-90% of the keenness, after that the 4k and 8k hones only serve to reduce the strokes needed on a finisher, so the level of improvement on the edge from the 4/8k hones when used as a sign of progressing is different for everybody which is why i think most veterans will use the feel of the edge as an indicator to progress but still have a test to make sure e.g leg/armhair test, TPT, etc
regards
alex
Interesting....as a newb honer this is essentially what I did on the Bergischer...honed on the 1k until it effortlessly cut leg hair. Then moved up. The progression off the 4k/8k was a little more nebulous....but I got a nice smooth shave able edge so I must have done something right! Now to repeat!!Quote:
Originally Posted by justalex
Hard for me to feel the suction at the 1k or 12 micron stage. What I do is to do half laps or circle laps until I get a burr, then do the same number on the other side and check for a burr. If I go over 50 to get the initial burr then I break it up into groups of 50. When I have felt the burr on both sides I do regular laps to hone the burr off. Then I strop on the Big Daddy felt, and do 40 very very light laps. The edge ALWAYS shaves arm hair effortlessly after that.
All other stages, I use regular laps until I feel the stone or film sucking the blade down into it. Never fails. After I feel the suction, I do 30 extremely light laps and move on to the next stage.
Without a good bevel, you won't get suction at the finer stages. If you go and go and don't get suction, probably you don't have a good flat bevel.
At every stage, I lighten up the pressure at the end until the razor is barely staying in contact. Seems to help a lot when I do that.
At my finish, I can't use the suction clue because I get suction from the very first lap. I finish on .3 micron film over damp paper and here, I just count off 40 laps with decreasing pressure. Then I strop and do a quick test shave, and if it feels harsh then I hit the film over paper again but I don't reduce so much on the pressure. A slight pressure takes advantage of the flex of the film and the cushion of the damp paper to convex the edge slightly, and the edge will still be sharp but no longer harsh. Usually though it isn't harsh in the first place with the paper.
All said and done, 50 of the lightest laps on .1 micron diamond on balsa.
So during most of the journey, the suction is my main cue. At the bevel, I look for the burr and then hone it off. At the finish, it is already sharp and I just count laps and then test shave. My razor sensei likes to wave the razor over his forearm and go by how easy and silently it wacks the top off arm hair when the razor is about a quarter inch above the skin, and at the bevel stage he looks at how close to the skin he has to go to get it to cut, and if it won't shave arm hair when touching the skin he knows he isn't even close to a bevel yet. We both also look at the reflection under a bright light and this will tell you a lot about the bevel once you get the hang of it.
If I think the razor already has a decent bevel but I'm not sure but it might could be better, I don't raise a burr. I just do 20 regular laps on the bevel setter and look at the reflection and sometimes do a swipe on the forearm or leg or belly. If I am satisfied then a couple dozen very light laps more, just barely any pressure, and move on up into the progression. The burr method is overkill when the bevel is already almost there. But anyway that is a use of a visual cue. A loupe would help I guess but with the light bright enough I don't need it. I just got a USB microscope but it is pretty dodgy to use and so I don't rely on it during honing.
To be honest, when I first read about the pyramid method, I laughed.. I thought it sounded pretty retarded. But now I can see how it could work for a noob who doesn't have developed enough observation skills to recognize the cues. Eventually it will give you a usable edge. So in that case, the only cues are number of laps and if it shaves LOL!
I really don't do the TPT or HHT or TNT or any of that stuff, myself. Not saying they aren't any good, but I just don't need more tools than what I already got in the bag.
So there are a lot of ways to skin that cat, and it is interesting to see how other guys are doing it. It is kind of validating to see that so many other guys are like me going by the suction feeling to tell them to move up a grit. I guess at least sometimes, great minds think alike hehehe.
This is in response to some of the issues raised above and is just a short tutorial about honing a basic edge on a razor. It is meant to help newer honers to get an idea of what is involved.
When we start with a razor that is in need of a new bevel, the honing session might go something like this. First and foremost we must focus on keeping the blade absolutely F L A T on all the stones while we hone.
We will begin on the 1k stone until the bevel is completely set. We will stay on the 1k stone until the bevel is correctly set. [Refer to the WIKI if you don't understand what a bevel is]. We use a Sharpie marker on the edge and keep honing the edge on the 1k until all evidence of the Sharpie ink is completely gone, checking the edge with an illuminated jeweler's loupe. At this point, all that will be left on the razor edge is a nice even pattern of 1k scratch marks along the entire length of the blade on both sides. Also at this point we should be able to easily shave arm/leg hair at skin level or even above skin level.
If we have properly set the new bevel, it is time to move up to a 3k or 4k stone and begin the polishing phase of the razor honing. We will hone a combination of circles and x strokes until
1. all the 1k scratch marks are gone and.
2. the razor edge is easily popping hairs above skin level.
Check the edge with the loupe for any imperfections and 1k scratch marks. Remembering what the 1k scratch marks looked like, and the surface of the razor edge should now look much smoother and begin to shine. Watch how the hairs react when you cut them. They should easily fly away or even fall straight down onto you arm. When hairs fall straight down, it is an indication that you are doing your job well.
Before moving to the 8k stone, we can do 5 or 6 light circles on the 4k to dress the edge up. We are now moving to the 8k stone. Do 5 or 6 very light pressure circle strokes on the 8k and then do 8 no pressure x-strokes on the 8k stone.
On your strop, do 40 on fabric and 60 on leather. Test shave a spot on your face. If the razor tugs on your skin, repeat the 8k sequence and strop again. Our goal is to get a smooth shave from the 8k stone. Once you master the 8k shave, most all the other higher grit finish stones will serve you well. It's just a matter of experience and feel.
Shaving leg hair well. When it does that I go from the 8 to the 16 and not before.
The most I do now is a few hairs on the back of my hand. The arm or leg thing reminded me too much of 'ring worm'(use to be in ~ public health).
Tried the circle thing with the honing. Could remember if it was clockwise or counter...(or if that had to do with the hemisphere you were in?) So I just do it straight.
- What does TNT and TPT stand for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ru4scuba
- What is a deciding paper?
"The Nail Test" and "The Thumb pad Test"Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBrooklyn
See the Wiki for more info...
-john
For me it depends on the razor as much as anything else. Over time you get to know a razor's (or even a manufacturer's) quirks and what works best for a particular hone.
Of course the other thing it depends on is the hone.
But as a general rule off the 4K I test using a wet thumb nail. Off the 8K I test using arm hair wafting. My general approach is to produce an edge that gives a good shave after the 8K. That way my "finishers" are just icing the cake, as it were.
James.
oh another consistent sign is if after stropping there is a very noticeable increase in suction and its cutting leg/armhair effortlessly it shoud produce a very good edge.
Alex
I am just going to mention this,,
There has not been one Meet that I have attended that the AHT worked for everyone at the table... There has always been one person sitting there that it fails with..
That being said if it works for you "Great" but there are other tests to work through also you have the TNT at the bevel stage, the AHT the TPT, water flow/undercutting, even Magnification helps..
Figure out at least one test that works for you, more is better but at least one that you can nail it every time..
Thats what I meant to say :) I keep forgetting the learning stages I went through... for instance the HHT wasnt a big success for me but it has its place along with the other tests mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Coming off the coticule I have, the AHT seems very reliable so far.
kind regards
Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Good point - I'm one with flat laying arm hair so it's almost impossible for me to use the AHT. I use the HHT but you have to learn how to interpret the results - it's not so much does the blade cut during the HHT but "how" it cuts the hair... the WIKI is a good resource for the HHT and getting started on interpreting the results.
I know I have a good edge when I can hold a very THIN hair by the ROOT end and just touch it to the blade and have the hair fall away.
-john
really? The AHT? When you say "fails" what do you mean....doesn't effortlessly cut hair but still cuts? Even my roughest blades cut armhair if pushed a bit...Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I dont want to answer for Glen but IME its how it cuts an armhair;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ru4scuba
a thin armhair can be cut with a half bevel set from a coticule and thick hair can be cut with resistence
a full bevel will cut thick hair usually with some sort of noise (dependant on razor) and little resistence
a fully honed stropped razor for me has to be able to cut a thick armhair with no sound and no resistence at all, and leave no indicators that you've been cut apart from the cut hair itself.
i have a rough beard so the edge needs to pass the AHT which works very well for me, the lack of armhair is becoming an issue though... :)
Alex
Edit: i've also been wondering, depending on the hone, would certain tests better suit certain hones? because i believe the coticule edge is too soft sometimes to register with a HHT test, i used the TNT and a grippy edge didnt guarantee a set bevel in my case but I could see how it may apply to other hones...
See this is why the Meets are not only a learning experience for the new guys, but it is also a learning experience for many of us that are there teaching..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ru4scuba
If you look at my posts before the NC meet in 2009 I was always promoting the AHT as the best Bevel set gauge to move forward, heck if you couldn't pop Arm hair the razor wasn't sharp enough..
Then sitting at the table with a bunch of guys passing a bevel set razor around so they could do the tests and feel how sharp a razor really is at that stage we get a fail, one guy there can't get it to cut his Arm hair.. I figure it is operator error and move on :p..
All the way through to the finisher he can't get it to ever pass, the AHT just doesn't pass for him, after that I started adjusting my statements to "Use all the tests, figure at least one that always works for you"..
This same thing has happened at every Meet, usually it is the AHT but there are often times people just can't get a positive result using a certain test..
When explaining to a new honer now, how to test their edge, I never assume what works so easy for me everyday, is going to do the same for them, not after all the meets I have gone to and people I have Mentored at my house.