Suggestions for honing a smiling W&B with uneven wear

This razor is my nemesis (W&B for barber's use w/ barber's notch, smiling blade and uneven hone wear). I have now successfully honed a few razors that were in decent condition and am getting at least a decent shave from them. One of these was a slightly smiling blade with uneven bevels and uneven hone wear near the toe and it shaves like a dream (at least as far as this newbie is concerned).

For some reason, I just cannot get an edge on this W&B. There is significantly more hone wear near the toe than the heel. I have watched Glenn's videos on honing a smiling blade and watched all the videos I could on the rolling x-stoke to see if I could get it done. At this point I don't want to ruin the razor further so I'm asking for tips/advice.

I know its hard to give advice w/o seeing at least pictures of the razor, but I'm at work and it's at home, so those will have to come later.

Any help from the honing gurus (or tips from others learning) are appreciated.

And, yes, I could send it out to have it professionally honed, but I really want to learn to be able to deal with these issues myself.

Honing Gymnastics:

The movements required to move the bevel of a razor evenly and equally across the surface of a hone repeatedly


Sometimes that might be likened to a simple somersault, and other times it might be closer to a double backflip... That is just the nature of the beast, that heel forward swooping stroke is the easiest I have found to accomplish that objective...

Can I ask if you are using tape? I know some people don't like it, but it could alleviate some one of the factors (uneven hone wear). Best of luck and I'll be watching to see how you do. I haven't had the chance to hone a smiling blade yet.

sounds like a perfect canidate to be sent to a pro:)

I am not using tape. I don't really see how using it vs not using it could help address the issues with the blade. Maybe I'm missing something?

I will try to walk through how I understand it. I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I am wrong.

The bevel angle is determined by the spine of the razor and the edge of the razor laying on the stone.
If the spine of the razor has uneven and/or excessive "hone" wear this can cause a change in the angle(s) of the bevel over the length of the edge of the razor.
This change in angle(s) will make it more difficult to establish/maintain a crisp bevel.
By placing a layer of tape (or more if feel needed), you partially mute the uneven and/or excessive hone wear by "adding" to the bevel width.

I don't know the exact mechanics of how the tape helps, I just know there is a long history of it being succesfull. I think the added thickness and the slight resiliance of the tape as is is compressed is how it helps.

While this would not fix all of your issues, it may take care of one of them, which in turn may make the rest more easily overcome.

My two cents, someone please speak up if I am taking out of my *ss.

Ok. I get what you're saying but I think my issue is that, if the uneven wear had already resulted in a smile at the toe of the blade, wouldn't adding tape there prevent the edge from making contact with the stone?

I guess I really don't know much about this honing thing after all.

You are not alone my friend. But it should be an entertaining journey.

Have you checked the razor for a slight bend in the tang or a bit of a wrapped blade? If it has any of those two things that just adds a little gymnastics to the swooping X stroke.

Bob

I haven't examined it that closely, but it does not appear to be warped.

(Not sure why I 'thanked the posting'. A Sr moment). Having photos would help. The whole uneven wear and bevel thing is difficult to visualise.
When honing I always tape my razors. Might be just habit but I do find them easier to hone when I use tape.
Only positive input that I may have is the old marker on the blade trick. Marking the blade with an waterproof marker it see where the honing isn't even. Helps sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Seguragr

I am not using tape. I don't really see how using it vs not using it could help address the issues with the blade. Maybe I'm missing something?

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If you don't want to add tape then you have to follow the old hone wear or grind in new hone wear.. I liken this to driving down a Snow packed road you have to follow the ruts in the road, when ever you try and steer to a new path you either get yanked back in the deep ruts or you have to cut new ones.. Anyone who has done this knows what usually happens :(

Adding at least 2 layers of tape is like plowing the road so that you have a even surface to drive down and create your own ruts (Bevel) there comes a point in time where the razor needs more then 3 layers of tape maybe 4 and honestly it might be time for a re-grind if the razor is worth it..
Without a pic of the spine vs the bevel on both sides we are simply talking generalities here with no chance at all of specifics...

Of course. I will get photos later. I was mainly trying to understand how taping would help.

How would I go about taping to help with this situation? More tape where hone wear is worse?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seguragr

Of course. I will get photos later. I was mainly trying to understand how taping would help.

How would I go about taping to help with this situation? More tape where hone wear is worse?

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I think I would rather wait for pics before answering, there are some tricks but I don't know whether you need them.. The Magic Marker test mentioned above is a really good indicator of where you are at...

Ok. I'll put up picks and try the marker test to see what's happening.

pictures of the razor

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send it to a pro, you as a novice may not get a good result.JMO

The razor has been Mis-Honed, see the Sway back in the Spine, the blade should have a smile to match, somebody didn't feel comfortable honing a smile or there was a chip in the past that was taken out... Now the geometry is off so the spine is fighting the bevel...

It also looks like the heel and shoulder are going to need some work, that is why one side of the spine is being ground down more then the other at the back, the heel isn't getting touched so you are pushing it..

I am not sure tape will pull you out here...

Hmmm. Ok. Thanks for looking at it. I guess I'll set it to the side and forget it. At least it was a cheap antique store purchase.

Sorry to see and read this. Sometimes it's just best to put them aside. If you don't already have one, it can be used for other purposes : cutting tape, slicing soap, opening shaving thing with that annoying plastic covering, etc.

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Originally Posted by Seguragr

Hmmm. Ok. Thanks for looking at it. I guess I'll set it to the side and forget it. At least it was a cheap antique store purchase.

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Why not tape the spine and try to sharpen it? The heel looks the worst heel first X strokes should help to bring it back. What do you have to loose?

I actually decided this morning that I'm gonna try it. Worst thing that can happen is I ruin a razor that may well be ruined already. Now if only I could find my electrical tape.

Yea, give her a go. I was wondering why you would just put it away if an uneven bevel was the worst of it. It may not smile anymore but an uneven bevel doesn't mean it won't take an edge just looks ugly.

Bob

Well, it took some craziness with the tape, and a lot of time and patience, but I think I got it. The bevel is still terribly uneven (probably will never change) but I managed to get what bevel it does have to be clean of marker with a single sweeping x-stroke pass.

Started with the 220 side of my Norton 220/1000 until I got the bevel set and able to clean in a single stroke, then progressed up through 1000, 4000 & 8000. I stopped at 8k because I wanted to see if I was wasting my time.

Just gave it the shave test and it passed with flying colors. No tugging, pulling, hesitation (and no irritation).

I was also so excited to see how it would do that I totally forgot to strop it before I shaved. I imagine it would have been pretty good if I had remembered. I guess I will clean it up after all. This is going to be my ugly duckling, and the first recipient of my newb skills at scale making. Then I'll touch it up on the naniwa 12k and see how it does. Attachment 143937Attachment 143938

There you go, all is well the ends well in a good shave.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Seguragr

One of these was a slightly smiling blade

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It looks to me like this blade is frowning, not smiling. Am I wrong? A photo taken with the blade edge parallel to a tile grout joint, rather than at an angle to it, might help make the blade edge configuration clearer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seguragr

if the uneven wear had already resulted in a smile at the toe of the blade, wouldn't adding tape there prevent the edge from making contact with the stone?

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The tape goes along the spine, not on the edge.

I can try to take another photo today, but I don't think it is frowning. My impression of it is that it is slightly smiling.

And I am aware that tape goes on the spine. My concern was that tape would elevate the spine off the stone and that that would result in the edge not making contact with the stone when the spine is laid flat on the stone. Turns out I had nothing to worry about, but I've been wrong before so I'm used to it.

I think you've done really well to retain a relatively even bevel given the spine wear. Lots more use in that razor still.

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So I checked it out and Tom apparently has a really good eye. It does appear to have a very slight frown in the center of the blade. I managed to take a picture which I can't upload from this app, so that will be coming later. Edit: uploaded picture.

Turns out I was also right and the toe does have a smile, though not as pronounced as I thought.

This definitely makes sense since the bevel in the center of the blade is the smallest and was one of the hardest parts to hone.

Now the question is, do I try to fix it, or leave it alone since I got the blade shaving sharp. I can't imagine it would take much to bread knife it. Of course I've never done that before, so it could be more work than I think it would be - not to mention honing it up again. But I do like to do things well when I do them.

So I went ahead and flattened out the razor, if for no other reason than that setting a bevel from scratch would be good practice. While the razor was full, I went ahead and unpinned it, cleaned it up, and just got done resetting the bevel. It's still a bit uneven, but significantly better than it was. I also managed to get this edge to pass the AHT at a 1k, which is something no other razor has ever done for me yet.

Now if only I would stop cutting into the shoulder. :(

All in all, great learning experience and I think it will be a significant improvement over the edge I had a few days ago.

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I will prefix this with don't quote me, I am quite new too. But I think you may need to remove some of the heel so it sits higher than the edge, sort of like it was in the original picture, but let the guys who actually know confirm.
Though nice save none the less.