Norton Roughness

I have a new 4k/8k, and I was told I would need to lap it. I also bought a flatting stone. I used the flattening stone first after penciling a grid on both sides of the Norton. It seems the 4k/8k was quite uneven (I could feel it when honing a razor, sort of a wave in it). I lapped it against the stone and then against some wet 600grit sandpaper so smooth it out (again using a pencil grid to ensure I'm getting it flat). Now the stone feels rough when I run a razor along it. The 8k side is worse than the 4k. It seems pretty flat though and I am getting a lot of suction on the sandpaper, just damn rough.

Is there any way I can get this thing smooth?

Run it under cold water and rub it down with a brillo pad.

I will try that, thanks. I just felt it now (dry) and it feels very smooth to the touch.

Ahhh, if it isn't one thing, it is another. This straight razor trip isn't as straight forward as it first seems.

You may have picked up some grit from the sandpaper. You will need to scrub it off.
It does take a bit to see the light, but once you do, you´ll never want to go back.

You might want to lap it with some higher grit sandpaper.

A surface of 8000 grit is going to be a bit rough after scratching it with 600 grit paper.

I've heard of some members using an old razor on their Nortons after lapping just to smooth them out as well.

Just my 2 cents worth

And yes it is more confusing than you first think but anything worth doing .... blah blah blah... and once you get the hang of it it's not so bad (so I've heard) :tu

You might want to finish it off with some 1k wet/dry paper.

X

The 4K side on my Norton feels kind of smooth and hard but slightly scratchy when I hone with it. Like running the razor along a piece of glass with some grit to it... But the 8K side feels velvety. It has more friction than the 4K side.

I'd second X's suggestion to finish it with a higher grade of sandpaper. I usually lap mine with my 1K Norton waterstone. But 1K to 1500 grit sandpaper will do very nicely.

Josh

Do you have to lap a brand new Norton? I haven't yet done any honing, but I would think that if it were brand new, it would already be flat (is this just my newbieness showing through or what?)

You should lap any time you are uncertain if it is flat. If it's already flat, then the lapping process only takes a few seconds and removes insignificant amounts of material. If it isn't flat, then you'll be glad you did it.

When I first started, conventional wisdom was that new hones didn't need lapping. I thrashed around for nearly a month before I threw conventional wisdom out the window and lapped it, resulting in an immediate and significant improvement to my honing, and I was finally able to produce a shave-ready edge.

FWIW, this issue of getting lapping grit stuck in the hone only seems to happen the first time you lap it. It hasn't happened to me since then. I suspect that the hones have a sealant on them, and the grit is sticking to it that first time you lap it.

Yes, I would definitely recommend lapping a new Norton. I've had two of them, plus the 1K, and none of them was flat when new.

The factory finish isn't really well suited to honing, either. It forms while the hones are baking. Taking it off is a big improvement--much smoother.

Josh

Ok - as my Norton 4k/8k is now being shipped to me, this would be important to know. Rustyblade says he has a flattening stone...do I need one, or is is good enough if I simply get some 3M wet/dry sandpaper (1000 grit), strap it tightly against something flat and lap both the 4k and 8k sides with it? Is 1000 grit good enough? :shrug:

As far as I can tell from the posts, this is how I should lap: You are supposed to draw a 1 inch by 1 inch grid in pencil on the hone and then use either figure-8 or circular motions until the grid is completely gone. Both sandpaper and hone should be wet. IS THIS CORRECT? ANY ADVICE WOULD BE GREAT!

If sandpaper is used and any grit is embedded in the hone, I understand I need to use a brillo pad and running water to buff the surface, but will I be able to actually see the grit, or only feel it?:shrug:

I get a very smooth surface with 600 grit sandpaper and the 8k feels almost like glass. With 400 grit it feels only slightly rougher, and that's what I've been using to finish my 4k/8k.

-------Michael

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

If sandpaper is used and any grit is embedded in the hone, I understand I need to use a brillo pad and running water to buff the surface, but will I be able to actually see the grit, or only feel it?:shrug:

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If you get grit stuck in your hone you won't be able to see or feel it with your hands, but your razor will feel it, and you can feel it indirectly through the razor - it'll feel like it's hitting speedbumps.

If you wet both sides of the sandpaper it will stick to whatever flat surface you're using for lapping. 1000 grit is fine, I use 600 grit myself. The norton should be soaked for 30 minutes before lapping it or honing with it. Especially when honing, it should have a puddle of water on it. And don't forget to dry it out thoroughly (couple of days) before putting it away to avoid mildew and mold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

Ok - as my Norton 4k/8k is now being shipped to me, this would be important to know. Rustyblade says he has a flattening stone...do I need one, or is is good enough if I simply get some 3M wet/dry sandpaper (1000 grit), strap it tightly against something flat and lap both the 4k and 8k sides with it? Is 1000 grit good enough? :shrug:

As far as I can tell from the posts, this is how I should lap: You are supposed to draw a 1 inch by 1 inch grid in pencil on the hone and then use either figure-8 or circular motions until the grid is completely gone. Both sandpaper and hone should be wet. IS THIS CORRECT? ANY ADVICE WOULD BE GREAT!

If sandpaper is used and any grit is embedded in the hone, I understand I need to use a brillo pad and running water to buff the surface, but will I be able to actually see the grit, or only feel it?:shrug:

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That is correct. Float glass is flat, (most glass is made by the float finishing process) Machined stone (ie marble/granite counter top) will be flat. I draw diagonal lines (because stones are most likely to develop belly in the centre) across the hone, but the idea is the same.

1000grit is very fine sandpaper. I would do the bulk of the flattening with 400 or 600 and finish with a quick rub on 1000 paper or on a fine stone (1000+) to refine the surface. However if the stone is flat, i do not feel that surface roughness on the stone really presents much of a problem.

Keith,

No, you don't need the flattening stone. It might be nice if you did a LOT of honing.

Depending how not flat your Norton is, starting out with an even lower grit would be OK. I've used 220 before, but you can wear away the stone pretty quickly with this...

Going up to 1K will put a nice polish on the stone. As you've seen here, there's some debate over whether a smoother feeling stone makes a difference. I just find my strokes easier to control when the stone is smooth.

Josh

Thank you gents. I bought some 1500 grit sandpaper today and a glass cutting board to slap the sandpaper to (the underside is smooth whereas the cutting surface is rough). I lapped the stone and the 8000k is smooth as glass. Lets just hope and can get those darn razors sharp now.

Thanks for all the info guys - if I run into any difficulty one my Norton comes in the mail, I will be sure to pick your brains.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

Ok - as my Norton 4k/8k is now being shipped to me, this would be important to know. Rustyblade says he has a flattening stone...do I need one, or is is good enough if I simply get some 3M wet/dry sandpaper (1000 grit), strap it tightly against something flat and lap both the 4k and 8k sides with it? Is 1000 grit good enough? :shrug:

As far as I can tell from the posts, this is how I should lap: You are supposed to draw a 1 inch by 1 inch grid in pencil on the hone and then use either figure-8 or circular motions until the grid is completely gone. Both sandpaper and hone should be wet. IS THIS CORRECT? ANY ADVICE WOULD BE GREAT!

If sandpaper is used and any grit is embedded in the hone, I understand I need to use a brillo pad and running water to buff the surface, but will I be able to actually see the grit, or only feel it?:shrug:

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I suppose it would depend on how far out your stone is. Mine seemed far from flat, so the lapping stone did most of the work and then the sandpaper did the final finishing. It would have taken forever and many sheets of sandpaper.

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Originally Posted by rustyblade

It would have taken forever and many sheets of sandpaper.

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Actually, the sandpaper just gets the job started. The grit slurry that the sandpaper abrades from the hone does the rest. This is also one reason why the sandpaper grit isn't as important as you'd think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Actually, the sandpaper just gets the job started. The grit slurry that the sandpaper abrades from the hone does the rest. This is also one reason why the sandpaper grit isn't as important as you'd think.

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True, and 8k slurry smells awful as it turns out.

mparker's point about the slurry is a good one. Back when I was using sandpaper for all my lapping, I did the 4K side first. That smoothed out the paper and left a 4K slurry on it, which put a nicer polish on the 8K side.

I think the concerns about grit contamination are a little over-emphasized. I've done a LOT of lapping: probably lapped my three different Norton stones for hours if you'd total it all up. (I hone a lot of razors, and my first Norton was defective, which led me to several marathon lapping efforts.)

And I can't say I've ever had grit get stuck in my hone. Not saying it doesn't happen, but if you use good wet-dry sandpaper like Norton or 3M, I don't think it's that common.

Josh