The value of mentorship in learning to hone

I have been wet shaving for many, many years.. straights for about a year. Nearly all of what I have had to learn about lathering, blade selection, shave technique, has been learned by reading, watching vids or chatting via the web. Along with a ton of mistakes and a few small successes.

I tried to do the same with honing and it didn't get me too far.. Accurately describing the amount of pressure to apply to a stone, or presenting the difference between a milky slurry and a misty slurry... well, for me the vids just fall short.

Fortune was bestowed on me when Michael, aka mjsorkin, offered to give me some personal time and share his technique with natural stones. I arrived at his house early Sunday morning; his family had yet to wake.. even Fred the cat was till snoozing..

Michael's work bench would be an awesome place for any of us to go shopping.. Shapton glass, Naniwa's in all sorts of pastel flavors, Coti's, Thuringian, Norton, JNats...

Together we worked three blades.. Michael examined my edges, as well as my technique (talk about pressure) and offered feedback. He was patient not only with my many questions, but in his approach to honing, which to me was a critical point to learn and mimic. Slow, deliberate and patient. He tested the bevel on single arm hairs rather than my technique of trying to mow down patches.

He shared a simple explanation, visual and tactile, that helped me understand the levels of pressure he was using on the stones. And, watching him build and manage the slurry, examine, test and retest the edge and then use feather-like passes on the super sexy Tony Miller strop was like mini moments of magic. It would have taken me ages and much trial and error, to learn what I learned in a few hours..

I struggled to find any more questions to ask him.. Michael was that thorough.

Our community, and hobby, is graced many gentlemen and Michael is a gem among them. If you get a chance to spend time with him, as I did, you'll come away better than you arrived. His hospitality and generosity in giving without expectation, and the pride he takes in romancing the stones, are what I think epitomize the term 'gentlemanly'.

Thank you Michael!

PS - I've had a chance to shave with one of the three razors we worked on.. a 7/8 Bengall. The edge Michael coaxed from the Coti is sublime. I hope to be able to duplicate his work.. fingers crossed.

Sounds wonderful :) I am interested in learning how to hone. I don't have any stones yet and I don't have more knowledge than what I have picked up from videos and reading on the internet, which isn't too much. I have thought about buying a 1k, 3k, 8k Naniwa SS and a Zulu Grey stone as a finisher. And then maybe buy some old, used, razors to start practicing on.

If I could offer my humble opinion...

Pick up one or two ebay specials as test razors.

Buy a bevel setter. there are a few to choose from. King and Chosera 1k's are a good starting place of the many options.

Don't buy anything else.. yet.

Learn to set the bevel. It's more than 50% of the battle of securing a good edge.

Post here for someone nearby who can offer you feedback and support.

This will shorten your learning curve by about 60% or more.

I couldn't agree more with the idea of having someone around that can help you along the way. The tips and advice are invaluable. And, at this special time of year, don't forget them and all that they've done to help you throughout the year. Anyone recognize this?

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I'll be dropping that at the post office in a couple hours. Don't forget to say thank you to them!

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

If I could offer my humble opinion...

Pick up one or two ebay specials as test razors.

Buy a bevel setter. there are a few to choose from. King and Chosera 1k's are a good starting place.

Don't buy anything else.. yet.

Learn to set the bevel. It's more than 50% of the battle of securing a good edge.

Post here for someone nearby who can offer you feedback and support.

This will shorten your learning curve by about 60% or more.

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Thank you very much for the advice :) The chosera have a pretty hefty price tag though. Aren't the super stone 1k a pretty decent stone at about one third/fourth of the prise of the chosera?
I looked at members in my country and the result was 87 members. And I don't know more exactly where they live and if they are able/want to teach. Most likely the nearest one is 500 miles away (that's what experience and probability says, but that could be wrong for once).

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Originally Posted by Ludvig

Thank you very much for the advice :) The chosera have a pretty hefty price tag though. Aren't the super stone 1k a pretty decent stone at about one third/fourth of the prise of the chosera?
I looked at members in my country and the result was 87 members. And I don't know more exactly where they live and if they are able/want to teach. Most likely the nearest one is 500 miles away (that's what experience and probability says, but that could be wrong for once).

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I don't consider myself wealthy by any stretch, but I am far from cheap. I've been given the opportunity to learn the 'buy quality, and buy once' lesson a whole bunch of times, but sadly, I repeat the mistake of trying to cut corners. Having said that, and with no experience with the Super Stone, I bought the King (will sell it shortly) and will likely buy the Chosera. It is a harder stone, had better feedback than the King, and unlike the King, doesn't need to be soaked. I don't know enough to tell you which one to buy, other than realize that the bevel set is arguably the most important step, so spend as much as you feel comfortable.

Yup...500 miles certainly puts a kink in face-to-face meetups. Today's technology can help closed the distance. Skype, Glance.net, Go-to-Meeting and such might be useful. Not as good as being there, but better than YouTube University or the single dimension of the written word.

Mike also sat down with me on more than one occasion.. Guy is a complete gentleman, has the patience of a god! Since leaving his house I'm finally understanding progression honing breaking away from pyramids yay yay!! And actually just honed a red imp I restored from start to finish!! And it shaved fantastic!! Also learned from doing I hone better standing up then sitting down.

Michael, thank you for this excellent post! I can only add that you are a great "student", and a lot of fun to hang out with. You are remarkably quick to pick things up, and you ask very good questions. I think that you will be getting great results in short order. You are passionate about this hobby and your restorations looked amazing.

Giving a honing lesson on a stone I had never used before was a bit of a daunting task. Luckily your Coticule was very predictable and easy to work with. I wound up getting some pretty good edges, some of my best with a coti. It also helped that you had three wonderful vintage razors to work on.

Thanks again for the opportunity to share my skills, and to talk at length about my techniques. It really was my pleasure. I just enjoy sharing this hobby with others. Isn't that what SRP is all about?

Michael

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Originally Posted by Airportcopper

Mike also sat down with me on more than one occasion.. Guy is a complete gentleman, has the patience of a god! Since leaving his house I'm finally understanding progression honing breaking away from pyramids yay yay!! And actually just honed a red imp I restored from start to finish!! And it shaved fantastic!! Also learned from doing I hone better standing up then sitting down.

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I'm glad to hear about your success with the Red Imp. That was a beauty of a razor, and it deserves to have a great edge.

I also really enjoyed our sessions together, and look forward to the next time.

Michael

Nice read and good to hear of appreciative mentoring as well! Good work, Michael :tu

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

I don't consider myself wealthy by any stretch, but I am far from cheap. I've been given the opportunity to learn the 'buy quality, and buy once' lesson a whole bunch of times, but sadly, I repeat the mistake of trying to cut corners. Having said that, and with no experience with the Super Stone, I bought the King (will sell it shortly) and will likely buy the Chosera. It is a harder stone, had better feedback than the King, and unlike the King, doesn't need to be soaked. I don't know enough to tell you which one to buy, other than realize that the bevel set is arguably the most important step, so spend as much as you feel comfortable.

Yup...500 miles certainly puts a kink in face-to-face meetups. Today's technology can help closed the distance. Skype, Glance.net, Go-to-Meeting and such might be useful. Not as good as being there, but better than YouTube University or the single dimension of the written word.

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Yeah you are right on that "buy quality buy once" thing. Thanks for the tips. I will have to think about that for a while :)

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Originally Posted by Ludvig

Thank you very much for the advice :) The chosera have a pretty hefty price tag though. Aren't the super stone 1k a pretty decent stone at about one third/fourth of the prise of the chosera?
I looked at members in my country and the result was 87 members. And I don't know more exactly where they live and if they are able/want to teach. Most likely the nearest one is 500 miles away (that's what experience and probability says, but that could be wrong for once).

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Any stone from Naniwa, Norton, or Shapton is a quality stone and will serve you well and I have owned and used all of their 1K stones.

As far as finding someone nearby, just putting your country in your location doesn't help much...Sweden is a pretty good sized. Add your city or a nearby city. Send a blanket PM to those you know are from Sweden and ask them how far they are away from you...you might get a pleasant surprise. If you don't, at least you tried. By modifying your location you might be able to help the next new person to straight shaving out...

I wish I knew about this forum before I attempted to hone my first razor... that didn't go so well as it involved a belt sander with a 1K belt designed for honing kitchen knives. I thought "hey if my knives can shave my arm hair then this will do the trick"... NOT.

Now I have a set of Shaptons and know how to set a bevel which IMO is 90% of the trick to honing. I hone with two hands so I can vary the pressure across the length of the blade precisely to get even bevels, I use tape religiously and change it fanatically so I'm always "on the edge." I like to use a rolling stroke even on razors that don't necessarily need one because I like to hone the heal and toe where they round off. I always use a heal leading stroke and alternate straight strokes with X strokes. All these little nuances have got me to a point where I can get it right 90% of the time finishing on a 30K Shapton. I took me months to get there but persistence and a lot of eBay "victims" got me there. I still haven't cracked stainless... I'm beginning to think you just can't get as good of an edge on SS as you can on good old carbon steel from the early half of the 20th century.

-john

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Any stone from Naniwa, Norton, or Shapton is a quality stone and will serve you well and I have owned and used all of their 1K stones.

As far as finding someone nearby, just putting your country in your location doesn't help much...Sweden is a pretty good sized. Add your city or a nearby city. Send a blanket PM to those you know are from Sweden and ask them how far they are away from you...you might get a pleasant surprise. If you don't, at least you tried. By modifying your location you might be able to help the next new person to straight shaving out...

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That is the impression I have gotten from reading a lot about it. Nice that I don't have to go with the most expensive one. I have actually just bought a Zulu Grey, just the rest of the stones I am lacking.

I have tried searching by city and the result is blank, not a single one. I'll keep at it for a little longer by myself and maybe try to PM later if I feel the need to.

Shipping international can get expensive, but I will tell you how I learned. I picked a guy I respected here in my country who was a well known/proven honer. I stuck with him & only him, asked only his advice on how to get going, shipped a lot of razors to him (included return postage) and even video's. My edges progressively got better and better until I "got it" and didn't question what a true shave ready razor was. I also kept a razor honed by him as my reference razor as well.

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Originally Posted by Ludvig

That is the impression I have gotten from reading a lot about it. Nice that I don't have to go with the most expensive one. I have actually just bought a Zulu Grey, just the rest of the stones I am lacking.

I have tried searching by city and the result is blank, not a single one. I'll keep at it for a little longer by myself and maybe try to PM later if I feel the need to.

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My recommendation to you is to pick up a quality barber hone like a Swaty. Learn to touch up with it, you could add the Zulu Grey to that "mix". Have a reference razor. Then learn to hone by the postal thing I mentioned.

As I want to start sharpening my own razor soon, I'm on the lookout for old razors that I can use to have some experience before sharpening my Iwasaki Kamisori... I have a Jnat, Nanina SS, and a strop to use for testing.

If anyone is willing to get rid of some old razors? I'd be gladly to take them off your hands :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

My recommendation to you is to pick up a quality barber hone like a Swaty. Learn to touch up with it, you could add the Zulu Grey to that "mix". Have a reference razor. Then learn to hone by the postal thing I mentioned.

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Thanks for the tips :) Mailing razors is totally doable.
I will have my eyes open for one of those and see what I can find. Is it a good idea to start touching up my professionally honed razor without any experience? Wouldn't it be safer to buy an old razor to practice on till I have some experience and know that I can do a decent job? Maybe your idea is better but that is just a thought of mine.

I would have your "practice" razor professionally honed first, so you can get a baseline for how it should feel. Also, any face time you can get with someone to learn will greatly shorten your learning curve. I sat down with a mentor here before trying myself and it was invaluable.

My choice was to learn with the least stones as possible. So it's the 1k and a Coticule. Once I have proficiency there, I will bring my Zulu Grey into the equation. I have the Norton 4/8, but like the naturals more.

My decision was confirmed when Michael produced the edges on the three razors using my coti. I recognize the time and practice I am going to have to invest, but Michael showed me my strategy is a good one. Keep it simple. If he could do it on an unfamiliar stone...well, I'll be able to do it some point.

That said, my practice sessions are 80% on the 1k and 20% on the coti until I can produce a perfect bevel.

I shaved with the second of the three razors we did... A 6/8 E.Weck.. It shaved incredible. Tomorrow I'll use the last of the three. Going for a hat-trick.

Mikes a nice guy. Really knows his stuff and humble too boot. Nice to hear it went well for you guys!

Just for the record... Michael scored a hat-trick.

Thank you Michael!!

Yesterday morning I shaved with the third of three razors we worked on Sunday morning and it was a real scream. Smooth and close.

Not that honing three razors is an outrageous act, but doing it on an unfamiliar coticule while teaching me the ropes.. that's pretty impressive. Just sayin...

I can't agree more about the value of a mentor to learn something new. I live near Loughborough UK and would appreciate it if anyone near here has any time to help a newbie to the world of honing