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Hi all,
I just ordered a yellow coticule and I'm seeking advice as to where in my progression I should try it out.
I currently use Shaptons 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 and 30k for my typical progression. I realize that the cuticule is not as fine as my current finishing stones - I was thinking of fitting it in after my 4k and finishing there. I'm eager to try out the stone and see how the edge differs from my Shapton edges.
Any advice is welcome!
TIA,
John
I typically set the bevel and then use the bbw side first then the yellow side. I know many do it differently. Ive heard going to 8k then coti, Ive even heard 15 then few laps to coticulize the edge.
You could use it after 4k I think, read up on 1 stone honing, if your razor is already in use and not damaged you could go straight to the coticule. Would suggest you read so e of Gsxsixgun's great posts
Coticules are a tough creature to tame. To get where you want to be, use your synthetics to 8K & shave. Then take the razor to your new coticule & shave. This way you will feel the difference. It took me a LOT of coticules to improve a 8K edge & I hope you are luckier than I.Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3152
I'm a Shapton GS junkie & it's really hard to beat a shapton edge taken to 16K & finished on a good natural finisher like escher. Yes, it is going back a little in the theoretical "grit", but it's a edge that is tough to beat & the edge lasts quite well too.
Each Coticule is different and takes some time to learn its characteristics. Also there are some different and unique techniques to honing with a Coticule. Check out the following link for the various techniques you can use;
http://www.coticule.be/home.html
There are a few videos on the front page as well as the unicot and dilucot method under the 'Coticule Sharpening Academy'
You can use it after 1k most of the time. Just start with a slurry that is opaque white but not thick and slimy.
I do circles followed by x-strokes, then dilute. Two or three sprays from a small spray bottle is good. I do four or five dilutions then wipe the stone clean. I finish with x-strokes on plain water.
I can add a little pressure early but from the middle dilutions on, I use no pressure.
Michael
Assuming you've got a few razors to experiment with you can try different approaches. I've done the 'one stone method' once, and once was enough :). After 4k, after 8k, you'll have to experiment with different approaches to find where your coticule fits in. Just be patient and don't let frustration get you, in case it is a difficult stone to figure out. Some are faster, others finer, you just have to play to see what you have. IME. :gl:
+1 on all of the above, I've had my coticule for nearly 4 years and for three of those it was a bugger to hone with.
With the coticule I have metal swarf dulls and gives a rough edge so I cklean and refresh my slurry at any sign of metal building up.
I could sit for half an hour trying to set a comfortable bevel without success, now it takes 5mins dulled from glass.
they are very good stones but the reason they seem to be a hit or miss stone sometimes is that you need to know how to use it and how certain factors effect the edge and adjust your honing style to get results.
happy honing
Alex
I think that sounds like a good plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ocelot27
That way you get to experience the stone pretty good and you can vary techniques as to how you finish it.
Comparing your results on the Shapton 16K and the Coticule after going from a 4K level and all the way up to the stones ability would be my approach with a new Coticule too!
I think that's going to be the plan to start out. I'm also going to monitor the edge with my microscope so I can actually see the edge change from the 4k level and see how the scratch pattern compares to the Shaptons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birnando
I'll try to post some photomicrographs when I get to it.
John
I would hone on the 4k then the coti. Test the edge then try and improve with the 8k. If you improve it with the 8k the keep working the coti. If not then it will be hard to tell with your progression but you will know it will be a good finisher after 8k. Maybe try and meet up and borrow a 10 & 12 k hone off someone. Good luck and have fun experimenting. Ed
I will try that - I have a 12K Naniwa that I haven't been using much since I started with the Shaptons.Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy79
I was going to use the Dilucot method and was wondering how many stokes at each dilution would suffice?
-john
Maybe its just me and I have a different perspective on this but does it make sense to try to fit a Coticule into a full progression of Shapton stones? If you start on your Shaptons and will finish on them, I don't see the point. Instead, I would be more interested in finishing stones. If you end up finishing it on your Shapton, I don't think you'll detect much difference between the Coticule honed edge vs. any other. OTOH, if you intend to shave off of the Coticule edge you'll see a difference. Whether its an improvement from your 30k is something you'll have to find out. But I don't think I'd bother trying to fit it in between your 1k and 30K.
The plan is to use the Shaptons up to 4K and then finish with the Coticule leaving the higher grit Shaptons out of the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
I do love my 30K edges - just want to try something new to expand my repertoire.
-john
I like many have stated, it takes a little work to get a feel for the rock.
I took my edges to 8k and then to coticule on water to see how the edges felt. One of three coticules on water made an improved edge. However, all three coticules with lather made great smooth and sharp edges.
Good luck and have fun! Put the time in and you will reap the rewards!
My first real stone was a slate-backed coticule gift from a retired barber.
Never got a really good shave out of it. Then i bought the Nortons and found i could get a better edge from the 8k.
THEN I LEARNED more about honing ("one stoning")!
Recently pulled two razors from shaving lineup, touched up one on the 4/8 and the other on the coticule.
And THIS time the coticule won the face.
Slurries and pressures and stroppings OH MY!
take your time, watch the vids, and feel that rock. we can type until our little fingers fall off, but nothing replaces some quality time in front of that particular stone.
In order to completely confuse my results, i picked up a barber hone too...
Use the coticule for a while, that's basically the best advice you could have - you need experience with it as much as you need advice. If it's a very coarse stone that leaves a dull looking edge with deep scratches and you cannot get a light enough touch to avoid that on clear water, then it's not going to make a great finisher.
In addition, coticules benefit more from a good linen than most stones, I'd venture to say that's true of any of the finishers that have bigger and duller particles and leave fairly flat grooves.
I've used a multitude of stones, and of the four coticules I've gotten, I'd say one will provide a finish like you'd expect from a finisher. One of the others is a coveted deep rock natural combo stone, but it is fast and aggressive and despite the verbiage on its label, I wouldn't consider it a finisher.
All of the one-stone stuff aside, coticules aren't really much different than anything else. You can "one stone" any stone that will finish a razor OK with clear water.
" My momma always said, "Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get." ...Forrest Gump
Same thing applies to coticules! Until you know what you have you'll never know what kind of edge you will get...
As for me: On older Sheffield blades I always follow a 12k Naniwa with a very hard 'La Dressant au Bleu' coticule (10-12K with water only) and then one of my Eschers (water only) for a few strokes. Really softens the edge and never fails to satisfy!
With 'harder steel' Germans or Americans I usually finish on the 12K and then soften the edge with either a CrOx or PbO pasted strop.
WP34
I've got an old very hard Coticule that I will never part with... if you're not trading an Ocelot for it!
try the ardenes website it has good step by step info on both methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by ocelot27
+1...Me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I have tried over 10 different coticules (patiently, more than once) and found only very little difference in final results. The ratio of newly mined and older ones was about 1:1. I've used them on German, Swedish, English, Japanese and American made razors, old and new, without any major issues. It has taken me some time, with ups and downs, but in the end they all worked very much according to the same principle. I have five now, which is about four too many.
Coticules on water don't do much more but polish the edge, unless you're willing to do literally hundreds of strokes - or you have a self-slurrying stone, but they are really quite rare.
But I understand my experiences don't necessarily mirror those of others.
Actually, my experience mirrors yours quite a bit. I broke down and contacted my old honing mentor and he explained to why I was being so frustrated. I learned to hone on synthetics up to a high "grit" and finished on a natural finisher just like he does. He explained that I have to put it into my mind that I am used to a very refined edge & most (less than 0_%) coticules simply are not finishers, they are polishers. If you have a coticule that improves the shave over a synthetic edge of 8K from the big three, you have a keeper. It's not that coticules are bad to hone with at all, it's that with the means of communication that we have, there are simply better stones available to us if we are pushing honing to where most of our forefathers could have never imagined. Coticules were the cats meow back in the late 1800's-early 1900's as they were among the top finishers available at the time. Lets now fast forward 100 years, a lot as evolved including: shipping, communication, technology, and the such. The coticule has a great place in the honing line up & serves well, its just not the last stone used for most of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pithor
I've had quite a few coticules come and go, some stayed. IME there have been differences between them. Sometimes subtle and other times not so subtle. I've had a few that were fast and fine, some slow to the point of despair., and some in between.
I've always felt, can't guarantee it, but always felt that if I'm not "getting there" with the stone it is me, not the stone. Where there is ....... is a smooth shave as a result of my honing. Early on I came to the conclusion that no coticule will give me as fine a shaving edge as an Escher. I knew that old barbers, in their 60s and 70s, up in Northern New Jersey, preferred coticules to hone their razors.
Experimenting with coticule honing I decided that, at my skill lever, I could get a smooth and comfortable, close shave from a razor honed/finished with a coticule ....... but ....... it would not be as sharp as that done with an escher, or with a high grit synthetic. So I figured that the barbers liked the coticule precisely because it didn't get "too sharp". So they could shave a customer with less fear of causing a nick. My guess is none of those old guys would have wanted an edge honed to a 30k synthetic level to shave their customers.
Fast forward a few years and quite a few stones, natural and synthetic, played with. A few years before I had spent a lot of $ on a 8x2 slate backed "kosher" coticule. It is a La Veinette which is purported to be a fast stone. Well mine didn't seem to fall into that category. I messed with it a bit from time to time and finally put it on the shelf. One day my TI super gnome 5/8 was still shaving well but not quite up to snuff.
I went over to the kuchen counter, opened the cabinet to get a stone to touch up and the La Veinette called to me. I began X strokes with plain water and every 30 strokes I made a pencil mark on a piece of paper, went and stropped 30 on leather and tried an HHT. It was coming along but not "there" yet. Cutting to the chase, I did 180 some odd X strokes, water only, light pressure, and that razor was as sharp and smooth as any I've ever honed on any stone be it natural or synthetic.
So this experience has me rethinking my impressions on some of my other vintage coticules. I will eventually go in for "whatever it takes" sessions with the half dozen or so that I have and see if I can find the sweet spot for all of them. BTW, I don't disagree with others experience that they are not all finishers. Each one has to be judged on its own merits. Just saying that sometimes, at least in my case, it is more the hand on the hone than the hone itself. :tu
Thanks for all the advice and info. Praying I get lucky.
I ordered the stone from The Classic Edge - it's supposed to be the "select" grade - whatever that means.
After watching the videos, I think I'm going to try the "eliptocot" method first on a razor that I know is very easy to hone...
Can't wait to get it in my hands...
-john
p.s. No trading my cats!
All good advice here. Try different things as was mentioned. The best coti edge for me is by rubbing a slurry stone on the coti for say 60 rubs, washing off then 45 rubs, washing off progressively doing less rubs instead of diluting the same slurry etc until I get a tiny slurry in my case its no less then 8 rubs and done. It does take time and there are many methods, but that works for me.
bill I;ve recently started doing the exact same method, it turns out the metal swarf was giving me rough edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3152
I've also been trying different pressures with the slurry stone, if you make a slurry then slowly rub the stone until the slurry stone is gliding over the surface, it improves the softness of the edge especially when finishing, almost like polihing the surface, its especially good for the finishing stages, it feels like honing on glass.
regards alex