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Ok is it just me or does a razor sharpened on a Coticule seem dull compared to a razor sharpened on a Chosera 1k, Naniwa 5,8,12k. I've bought razors sharpened on a Coticule and I always end up starting over from the Bevel up. I guess my standard is razors that Lynn has sharpened.
Thanks
Guy
Now you've done it...let the games begin!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonerider
:tameshigiri:
I get the same impression as you do. It is definitely shave ready, but dullish(not dull mind you). So I get very smooth coti like edges but sharper from my Escher, or a few jnats that get me the smooth edge faster and easier.
Do not mean to start anything. But I've bought from two different places that use natural stones. And I've had to start from scratch every time. I tried to make myself think they were sharp enough but after a few days a scrapping I couldn't take them anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
There is a USA razor maker that uses and Escher and it gets the razor shave ready but still not as good my Chosera, Naniwa setup or razor I've bought that Lynn has sharpened. Maybe it is just more of an art with naturals and finding the right stone?Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3152
Just kidding around...been lots of discussion on this...it's one of those YMMV things!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonerider
:D
Just experienced something similar to the OP. Just got a razor that was supposedly finished on a coti and was shave ready but I thought wait a minute, I wonder. Did a bevel reset 3k Nani, 8k Nani and 12k Nani and the result on the second go was a sharper edge for me. Yea, 2 goes at it being not too good at honing yet. Anyway it really is a YMMV thing I suppose.
Bob
What it is is finding what YOU like. Im like you and I find that many edges are too "soft". I have a few Jnats that produce what I want as well as the suehiro gokumyo 20k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonerider
Natural Stones vary from piece to piece and especially over time and from different mines and layers. From what I've seen in Coticules ones mines recently seem to be inferior to the older ones and I say that just from the posts I see on the forum.
Mine is around 10 years old and is a great finisher.
Coticules has a unique way of cutting steel. The garnets scoop the metal away rather than carve into the steel. This leaves a different edge. Coticules leave an edge that is very gentle on the skin, but they are not laser sharp like pastes orthe synthetic stones.
the edge from a coticule kind of pops the hair on your face rather than glides through like butter. Some like it and others don't. Its a ymmv thing.
I think most barbers use to like coticules because the likelihood of a cut on a customer was lessoned.
Lonerider,
After I have done with the coticule( I have a La Verte & a La Veinette), I finish on a Naniwa 10 or 12k SS. This gives me the edge I like.
Have fun !
Best regards
Russ
It all comes down to who is doing the honing with the coticule, IMO. :shrug:
There are A LOT of different coti's, and A LOT of different people!
If you want to be sure to get a very sharp edge, in a consistent way, use the synthetics
Coti's, Jnats, Welsh, German,.... stones all have a different learning curve,
I had several coti's, they didn't "deliver" to my expectations, the are now with good people who will cherish them,
NOW I know I didn't deliver to the expectations of those stones!
Nowadays I've got, again, a couple of "old" coti's and damn! There good!
Do I get a HHT 4-5 out of them, no, but a HHT 3 and I know while learning, this could get higher
I do think they will not give the edge of a good Jnat, but I'm now enjoying the feeling of pushing a razor from bevel through pré-finish as far as I can, just to stimulate the learning curve, and then go to my Jnats
I just needed more time with them I guess
It's all about what you want of an edge, a stone,...
Do you want to spend time on a stone or not, do you want to learn on naturals or rather on the synth's...
Some coti's, Jnat,... are easy to learn, others not
My experience at this moment led me also to believe that there is indeed a difference in the "old" and new ones,
but maybe I'm wrong...
Just learn what you want to learn, have fun, enjoy!
The rest is all up to you and all of us!
Kindest regards,
A large percentage of the coticule edges I've encountered are underdone, especially if the honer has opted to set the bevel on the coticule as well. Once I feel the edge is "there" I do another dilution cycle. This usually gets me to the level of refinement I like. If not, I'll continue with watery slurry dilution cycles until I'm happy.
People who hone with coticules generally don't know how to hone.
I'm kidding!
I just wanted to post that for a reaction.
I started honing with coticules and used then exclusively for awhile. You'll find that there is A LOT of variance in the finishing quality of one to the next.
Well, you got me pegged with that one...I have a coticule and don't know how to hone!!:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by HNSB
I meant no disrespect, it was simply an observation.
My comment was just a little friendly ribbing toward some of my friends who use coticules exclusively.
I'm in the same boat: I tried two coticules and have never managed to get a properly sharp edge from them. Red DOVO paste made a big difference. Currently, I have one old barber's coticule that I hope to use as a finisher, so far with little luck.
Sometimes it pays to experiment with different finishing techniques on coticule. Some stones do well when finishing on plain water, or even under running water. Other stones might excel when a 'misty' slurry is used to finish. This can be done by rubbing the slurry stone over the coticule once or twice to create 'slurry-tinged water'....
I have even fooled around with using Norton Honing Oil on my coticule to finish. It actually seems to work well as coticules are non-porous....You can just wash it off with normal dish soap....
Once you learn your coticule it will reward you with edges that melt the stubble away, I set bevels on chosera 1k then dilucot on coti just spend time on learning one coti and as Jpcwon says experiment with the finishing techniques......providing that the bevel is well set thats where your rewards will be.
Mark
Indeed, it really is all about the bevel, and then finishing it offQuote:
Originally Posted by markodams
That took me a long time to realize...
but it seems that everything you learn is always hard and difficult in the beginning,
until you learn it, then its "easy"
I do think the coticule seems like an easy stone to learn, but it isn't (most off the time)...
Just try, try, try... if it becomes difficult, set aside and later on try again...
I've had a dressante coticule for nearly 4 years and only in the last year have I had consistent edges that meet my requirements.
As a couple of members know I've been experimenting with this hone far too much.
I would someties hone for an hour with a slurry I would water down until it was black and finish on water with rough dull edges at the beginning...
But I realised the metal swarf would cause dulling and rough edges so I changed the orthodox method to refresh the slurry and use the slurry in 3cm lengths doing halfstrokes for the whole length of the coticule each side.
After 10 minutes I can set a bevel and finish with a very soft edge that will cut my very coarse beard easily.
its all about how you use the stone.
regards Alex
Not sure what it is about a coticule shave. You're right with that they don't seem sharp enough. They edge doesn't really bite into the thumb pad, or pass the the hht5 with flying colors, i usually get a 3 or a rare 4. A 5 after the strop session. But the not so sharp edge has been the best shaves so far. I've tried a few other hones, but have always gone back to the coticules. Does anyone have any input as to why the coticule gives such a skin friendly shave? I have a thick beard but very sensitive skin. Think the binder? The garnets garnets shape maybe?
The stone has limitations on how refined an edge can be, although for coti users that's a good thing. Im sure theres more to it though and someone with more knowledge will chime in.
Remember, there is a wide variation in coticule quality. When I got mine many years ago it was my finisher after the Norton 8K and I was very pleased with the result. Only after I got my escher did I improve on the coticule.Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurens
If Dovos info is anything to go by, the red paste at best is equivalent to around an 8k hone, maybe a bit higher (between 8k and 9k) which puts your coti at the same sort of level of a hone somewhat under 8k.
You can get an acceptable edge in this range, but nothing remarkable in my experience.
I have had somewhere between 30 and 50 cotis, but have only kept one, an extremely hard one. This is the only type that delivers an outstanding edge, as far as I am concerned.
Your opinion may well differ, but most of the mystique concerning cotis is just mumbo-jumbo. They are just a stone, no magic qualities. Smooth is just another word for not fully sharp, in my mind.
Regards,
Neil
I've noticed I get great cutting edges on my Wade&Butchers with a coti, or any Sheffield razor. When I have finished on a 12k Naniwa the edge seems a little off and not as sharp. But when it comes to all my customs I finish on my 12k Naniwa with great buttery smooth edges.
Yes - I've taken fairly dull, still with a bevel however, to shave ready using my felt pasted 3 balsa boards. I've gone from Dovo Green,to the Dovo Red, then onto the CroX, then linen, then the strop, and the results have been great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
I've also had even better results by doing about 20 laps on the coticule after the Dovo Red and before the CroX....just remember to make sure the blade is very clean before moving between the different pastes and absolutely before coming near your strop.
+1 to this. My first razor (dovo best) not too long ago I bought which was finished on a coti. It felt dull and pulled but I tried to 'shave on' thinking it was my technique (which It could have been). I just ended up re-setting the bevel on it too with great results (for now anyway)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonerider
IMO, nine times out of ten, you can take any blade, as in the case with the GD's, and give it to an expert honer, and you will get a smooth BBS shave and a perfect edge. In the same instance, take a top of the line blade, and give it to an inexperienced honer, and you'll end up with a crappy experience and a compromised blade edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
IMHO, it's the honer, not the hone, nor the blade....that makes all the difference.
:shrug:
Thanks phrank but I wouldn't consider myself an expert honer. You are right though. It doesn't matter what hone you have if you don't know how to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
It sounds like there's one heck of a learning curve on a coticule. When I got my Naniwa SS (1,5,8,12ks), the only thing I knew about honing was from watching Lynn and Glen on the videos. I had 2 razors purchased from SRD that I knew to be sharp. I had a W&B and a Robert Williams also. I dulled both the W&B and the Williams (GASP). I went to work on the near wedge W&B, cause I reckoned it would be the toughest to hone. I used Lynn's progression, but Glens 2 handed approach. It took 5 attempts before I had a sharp blade again. I learned that at the 1k level, the bevel is set when the blade feels like the stone is sucking it down, that's the best way I can describe it, the contact between blade and stone feels sticky. After that the rest is easy. I'm not a honing expert by a million miles, but if you are thinking of buying your first stones, I recommend the Naniwas.
That really depends on what you are asking the Coti to do, as a Polisher/Finisher I find them as easy as any other chunk o rock :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne1963
But if you start asking any hone to do things across a larger spectrum then the learning curve gets much higher...
Think about taking your Naniwa 8k and using a slurry stone to set the bevel, then dilute it out to sharpen the edge, and finally to clear water to polish the edge.. That would take a bit of practice to get it to a repeatable process (BTW it can be done) Now think about how easy your 8k is when used simply as the polisher it is, after your 5k sharpner, and moving to your 12k finisher.. Easy Peasy
All comes down to what you are using the hones for :)
^^^^^^^^^
That's been my experience exactly. I had the chance to try a Coticule recently that left an edge close to my Escher. I used it after the 4k Shapton glass and started with a medium to low slury diluting to water. The shave was 3 passes with minimal touch ups for BBS and no alum burn. I had try the same with my Coticule and had to go to the 8k, then light slury to water to get 3 pass razor with more passes for a DFS no BBS and minimal alum burn (because the many passes needed).
This tell me that the borrowed coti is a better finisher than the one I have. I don't know how to use a coti still, but it's my next stone to achieve sharp shave ready razors from start to finish. Maybe when I can do bevel setting to polish then go to the Turi for a killer edge, I would sell all my other hones and keep those two only................NOT!
Double O