Quick honing question...

My intent here is to get this answered and then this thread can die if it wants too. So as long as I have been a member you'de think by now I would know this but, since I stink at honing admittedly here goes........I only have my Naniwas 5k,8k and 12k . No paste creams or other implement other than my strop. I have been using Lynn's method on the vids and I swear I can get hair to shave off my arm just fine. I got a great smooth shave after the session but, during the shave there was a lot of pulling. Do I need to do a lot more work on that 12k to alleviate that ?I keep hearin less is more but I get the feeling I do need to do a lot more 12k work. I know the 5 and 8k are sharpening so that's the only thing I can figure is goin on ? I do not own a loop so that's not an option unfortunately.

Hello!

Make sure that the razor shaves arm hair after 5K. The basic thing that you have to set the bevel properly, it's gonna take more time on the 5K then a 1K hone but it should works. Also make sure that the hones are flat !

I've had these blades for a long time and the bevel has been set by some of the best here I don't use a 1k or set my own bevels. As stated ,arm hair shaves fine and hones are flat .

Sorry, I miss read. I had the same problem with lot's of blade, and the bevel was the problem. All of them shaved arm hair but during the shave I felt "pulling". (Same as you) When I took much more time to set the bevel none of them pulled anymore. My opinion that a sharp blade should never pull. If I feel something like this I know that it's time to refresh the edge.

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Originally Posted by AlexK

Sorry, I miss read. I had the same problem with lot's of blade, and the bevel was the problem. All of them shaved arm hair but during the shave I felt "pulling". (Same as you) When I took much more time to set the bevel none of them pulled anymore. My opinion that a sharp blade should never pull. If I feel something like this I know that it's time to refresh the edge.

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it's all good......and agreed, a sharp blade should not pull, and I wasn't as clear in my post so my bad .:D

What sort of blades u have anyway? (Grinds) How many strokes did u complete on the hones ?

I am guessing that no matter who set the initial bevel that they don't last forever. I would go to the 5K Nani and hone to reset the bevel and use whatever test you do to prove it is set, mine is that it cuts arm hairs easily all along the blade. It could take a bit of time at 5K. For me there will be much fewer strokes on the next two stones as you are only really polishing the bevel and edge. Yea a jewelers loupe and a felt marker can be very handy to see your progress otherwise you can be just guessing.

Bob

I'm with Alex, I think the problem is in the bevel. I can imagine that it needs resetting after a long while and I really don't think the 12K can eliminate the tugging your refer to.

Have you ever tried pyramid honing? I'm really hooked, as I cannot get the refinement I seek otherwise. I do a 4K/8K pyramid starting at 10 strokes, then an 8K/16K pyramid starting at 5 strokes (last 5 strokes of the first pyramid are also the first 5 strokes of the second pyramid):

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4K - 8K - 16K
10 - 10
5 - 5
3 - 3
1 - 3
1 - 5 - 5
    3 - 3
    1 - 3
    1 - 5

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Originally Posted by BobH

I am guessing that no matter who set the initial bevel that they don't last forever. I would go to the 5K Nani and hone to reset the bevel and use whatever test you do to prove it is set, mine is that it cuts arm hairs easily all along the blade. It could take a bit of time at 5K. For me there will be much fewer strokes on the next two stones as you are only really polishing the bevel and edge. Yea a jewelers loupe and a felt marker can be very handy to see your progress otherwise you can be just guessing.

Bob

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Well let's put it this way Glen was the last guy to sharpen my blade so it was like a samurai blade and shaved great. I should clarify here. My straights don't get a lot of use because of my honing skills and I have not dinged the blades or anything like that,so I am confident it's not the bevel. This is more of a refreshing the blade deal as I have used them enough that it was getting to be that time. I went about 40 circles and 40 x's on the 5 with pressure and about 10 circles and 10 x's on the 8 no pressure. Shaved hair like a champ....did about 10 x's on the 12 and went to it. My face is bbs with no red so I know the blade is sharp put it's the pulling still which has got me guessing. a bbs would not be achieved without a decent bevel and there would definitely be irritation or redness afterwards.

Bob I think you're right, so I will be doing more 5k...thanks man.

When you said had them for a long time I was under the impression of continuous everyday use which was wrong. Did it shave arm hair all along the edge at the 5K stage?

Bob

If the you wanted to refresh the blade should start from the 12K hone with 15-20 light strokes. It should be enough to get it back to nearly the original sharpness. But make sure that you can "ruin" the original bevel with the 5K hone, so it doesn't matter if u move up for a higher grit it's gonna be pull again. The less usage doesn't prove anything cause I have to refresh the edge of my blades after 4-5 shaves, depends your hair,prep,etc....If the blades doesn't pull after Glen hone them, then you can be sure that the problem is with the hones, bevel, or honing skills. It would try to reset the bevel on the 5K, and then the pyramid method what Laurens said. The pyramid should work if you reset the bevel.

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Originally Posted by BobH

When you said had them for a long time I was under the impression of continuous everyday use which was wrong. Did it shave arm hair all along the edge at the 5K stage?

Bob

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Yeah...that's why I was so confounded...and again I should have clarified better in my initial explain. But I do think your spot on about the 5k meaning not so much the bevel but still needs more 5k just the same. I really like Lynn's video method and the circles were really helping as x pattern alone in past honing wasn't always doin it for me,so I think If I keep it up I may actually develop a good honing skill ha ha !

Okay so I am signing off here now. Thanks for the input and have a good Holiday y'all:chapeau

A bevel doesn't degrade. Make sure that the razor was untaped when set. To update a honing a few good passes on a finishing stone are all that is needed, for the life of the razor.

It's possible you did too much honing too. Not over honing, but you've honed enough that the edge is just getting ripped up, or your skill is being more detrimental than progressive.

I'm going to suggest you only update edges with a few passes, then add tape and try again, or buy a loop if your going to tear into it, in the future.

For now, try a magic marker test, and a thumb nail test and see if your hitting the edge and if the edge is still consistent. Then, work your way back to a smooth edge slowly. Go slow. Hones do a tremendous amount of damage to a razors edge. Use disciplined stokes and gently hone the edge with no pressure and a high grit stone.

Consider purchasing a loop or hand held micro so you can see how awful an edge looks after one 5k pass. Once you see the damage you'll spend your time more wisely fixing the damage by honing delicately with a higher grit hone.

If I owned a razor honed by Glen you couldn't pay me to put a 5k stone to it. That be like whittling a toothpick with a chainsaw.

As a forum we've got to re-address the "reset the bevel" panic that ensues too quickly.

It really does not matter who honed a razor or what it shaved like at one time, once it starts to pull it is an indicator the edge has been damaged.

It only takes one errant swipe on a strop to dull an edge. It depends on the amount of edge damage as to what will revive it.
You really need magnification.

But even without magnification if you hold the blade under a strong light looking straight down on the edge and tilt the blade a bit you will be able to see if there is any reflection from the edge. Reflection is a damaged edge reflecting the light back at you where the bevels are no longer meeting. The more reflection the lower grit stone or more time on your lowest grit stone will be needed to reset the bevel.

Even a dull razor will shave arm hair at times as you are not testing the whole edge. So one spot on the razor may shave, the damaged section will not or will pull.

Looking at the whole edge will tell you if it, (the whole edge) is sharp, bevels meeting.

And that is the problem with all hair test, hair test only tell you that minute part of the blade, that cut a single hair, is sharp.

How is your stropping method? You could be doing damage there also... Just another idea?

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

It really does not matter who honed a razor or what it shaved like at one time, once it starts to pull it is an indicator the edge has been damaged.
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I think this is too dramatic of a description. A razor that "pulls" is usually just a beginner not knowing how to shave, a razor that begins pulling might just need a slight refresh. Pulling is a pretty normal sign for a razor that has been used, by a beginner for more than 10 shaves, or an expert for a few months.

It is not an automatic conclusion that the edge has been "damaged" and needs to be re-set. Although it's true that the problem could be caused by anything, and the correction needed could be intensive, it shouldn't be our first recommendation.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

As a forum we've got to re-address the "reset the bevel" panic that ensues too quickly.

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As the OP, before posting, had already gone down to the 5K stage I am guessing that there is not much you can do except think about if the bevel is meeting. At that point would working more on the 12K do much? I would like to know for my own reference.

Bob

Bob, not sure if you are asking me, or if I'm following. The OP said he "only had a 5k", I'm not certain if he used it. If he had, then you are right, likely the damage was done. He might not ever get it back to normal. It might have also simply been taped . . . more 5k might then help.

And the "damage" might have been severe enough to require a 5k. I, personally wouldn't describe "pulling" as "damage".

In the end though, we all have to go back to a finisher at some point, right?

I've only taught a few hundred people how to hone and I've always been saddled with the advice that most beginners need to try their finisher and see if it works. If it doesn't, there are only a few other solutions. One of them is learning how to hone better. When a new honer tears into a bevel with a 5k they should be more careful than when they use a higher grit. I've had a lot of success simply teaching people how to hone better and discovering that a finishing stone can accomplish a lot, given the appropriate chance.

AFDavis11


Yea, I was asking you. I had understood the OP had already gone down to the 5K previous to posting as per post #9. I am with you on refreshing a blade at the highest grit you have and working backwards if that does not work. A bevel reset is a last resort for me too. Being a novice to honing I was just trying to clarify things in my mind which you have done for me.

Bob

BobH,

Cool. I hate to comment if I'm not being asked.

I agree that the 5k work probably already occurred. I'm very careful about assumptions though. In the OP I wasn't sure, and using the "Lynn" method didn't really clarify what had actually been done to that specific razor, for me.

I think some of my posts get misinterpreted. I think there is a standard solution to honing problems, and then a more careful approach I prefer with those that are learning.

I think the strategy of working backwards isn't well articulated. I think beginners need more emphasis on an "if this, then that" approach. The this being a honing or shaving test result and the that being a honing recommendation.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think this is too dramatic of a description. A razor that "pulls" is usually just a beginner not knowing how to shave, a razor that begins pulling might just need a slight refresh. Pulling is a pretty normal sign for a razor that has been used, by a beginner for more than 10 shaves, or an expert for a few months.

It is not an automatic conclusion that the edge has been "damaged" and needs to be re-set. Although it's true that the problem could be caused by anything, and the correction needed could be intensive, it shouldn't be our first recommendation.

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My first recommendation was, before anything was done to this razor, especially if you are a novice to honing or maintenance, find out what the problem is.

Simply looking at an edge with or without magnification would have done nothing to make the problem worst and at the least you may be able to determine a course of action based on the degree of damage.

Now that it has been on the stones it is no longer the edge Glen put on it, in fact most probably after it was stropped the first time it was no longer the same edge.

The OP said, “Well let's put it this way Glen was the last guy to sharpen my blade so it was like a samurai blade and shaved great. I should clarify here. My straights don't get a lot of use because of my honing skills and I have not dinged the blades or anything like that, so I am confident it's not the bevel.”

So, if it was not pulling before and now it is, something happened to damage the “edge”. The degree of damage should be determined before any action, or better said to determine the best course of action.

Too often the solution is to get it on the hones when possibly stropping will solve the problem. Unfortunately stropping is usually the cause of a dulled edge and the resulting “pulling”.

Now the razor has an entirely new and different problem, one that most probably will require a bevel re-set.

Still, until someone looks at the bevel and edge, we won’t know…

This will be a bit long but here goes.

Was the spine taped. All of Glen vids I've seen he taped the spine. If he taped and you didn't you weren't honing the edge of the bevel. If Glen didn't tape it and you did you would create a micro bevel which would only make it easier for you.

You said you used light pressure on the 5k then moved to the 8k. You need to finish on every hone with no pressure so to leave the lightest scratch pattern possible so as to get the most from every stone. It also means you need less work on the next stone to achieve the same edge as you refined it more on the previous step.

You have been finishing on the 12k which is a finishing stone to achieve a smooth, sharp, tug free edge. You should be achieving this at the 8k level and until you do the 12k is polishing an unfinished,unrefined edge. Get it right at the 8k then move on to the 12k.

Retouching up a razor should have been 5-10 laps on the 12k with no pressure. You have moved back 3 steps to mid level sharpening again. You now need to ensure a bevel then move through each hone getting each stage correct to bring the razor back to shaving properly again.

I hope this is useful for you and that you get the edge your chasing. Good luck. Ed