Less pressure = razor sharp

I think I just learned something huge but then again maybe not. Can anyone confirm this.

I was touching up my dovo best quality on a guangxi stone and was applying moderate pressure and it got duller!! I tried everything from marker on the bevel, circles, X stroke, half stroke, everything. Nothing worked. Razor was sharp but not popping hair at their tops sharp.

Then....I tried 50 very light strokes and stropped and ......BOOM! It started popping the hair at the tops. Passed a HHT 3 and in some spots a 4!

was this a coincidence? Did I just get to a certain number of laps or was it the pressure?

last time it seemed as though it didn't work until I applied a slight pressure this time it seemed like it was the opposite?

I have a very sharp razor but.....help

I think like anything SR related... less pressure = better results! :tu

I've been working on improving my honing recently. The last time I honed my razor, I used EXTREMELY light pressure and the results were amazing. Sharpest I've been able to get my razor so far. I definitely think less pressure is better...at least at some point. Like I said, I'm still trying to improve.

Yeah, a key revelation for me has been progressively less pressure the higher up the grits and the closer to finished you get. Conversely, a big hurdle for me was using enough (more) pressure to set bevels.

Yes, I did a funded study (ASRRC, grant no. SR0002) on this a little while ago. The main result can be shown in the following graph:

Attachment 150475

The y axis represents edge awesomeness (a term coined by the author at the behest of the editors which unfortunately hides a rather complex and brilliantly clever iteratively reweighted monte carlo based edge shaveability measure discussed in an upcoming short article published in Nature). The X axis shows pressure, as measured using a modified Sturmey-Archer gaussian random field Newtrometer.

The graph is the result of 200,000 individual hone-shave repetitions for each treatment combination in a fractional factorial design. Treatment combinations consisted of steel type (3 types), grind type (5 grinds), razor size (8 sizes), hone progression (15 progressions, comprising the 15 most common bevel-to-finisher stone combinations as data mined from the user databases of SRP, B&B, TSD, Coticule.be (to be honest, only one combo from that site...), and R&S.

Shave tests were conducted on hemispherical ballistics gel moulds impregnated with beard hair, randomly selected from over 15,000 barber shops worldwide.

The results are clearly conclusive. Due to the nature of the edge awesomeness measure, an edge awesomeness of > 0.85 yields an acceptable shave, on average. From the graph we see that too little pressure is ineffective. Too much pressure is ineffective. Pressure in the range of approximately 10-15 Jimbopascals clearly yields the best and most awesome edges, on average (p<0.0001). This clearly ties in with previous studies by Jimbo et al (ASRRC grant no. SR0001) and confirms the so-called "goldilocks" effect postulated in that seminal work.

James.

This is something noteworthy. As you develop and polish a fine edge, very little pressure is needed to flex the blade and take the edge off of the finishing hones. If pressure of any sort is applied, the work is for naught. Let it lay and do proper strokes, weight of the blade.
JMO!

Are you Serious Jimbo?


In my best cousin Eddie voice from Christmas Vacation... Lol

Here's a thread you might find interesting: http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?p=747956

Wow! That's some actual and factual stuff! I have my answer then-pressure is directly proportionate to sharpness. Light as a feather on the finishing stone and strop from now on (while having just enough to keep it flat if course).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HNSB

Here's a thread you might find interesting: More on high passes - with pics

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I JUST read that 10 minutes after I posted this! Very interesting stuff with pics. Amazing.

Jimbo....whats yah Smokin brother....LOL.....I did enjoy the read !!!!

Ok. I just stropped on balsa with chromium oxide green on one side (10 laps) and red iron oxide (15 laps) on the other side and then stropped on leather. HOLY <edited for Christmas>!!!! I AM SOLD!! Brought that edge up to a HHT-4 popping hairs as soon as they hit the blade! Amazing. So now what are some tips to keep edge from rounding from using a paste?

Will the balsa help? How about 20-30 laps on the guangxi stone every time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes, I did a funded study (ASRRC, grant no. SR0002) on this a little while ago. The main result can be shown in the following graph:

Attachment 150475

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Shave tests were conducted on hemispherical ballistics gel moulds impregnated with beard hair, randomly selected from over 15,000 barber shops worldwide.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
James.

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I was actually believing this & trying to learn,,,until the da%n "gel moulds impregnated with beard hair" :gaah: line,,,,give me back the last 15 minutes of my life Jimbo,,,,:mad: :whipped:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

This is something noteworthy. As you develop and polish a fine edge, very little pressure is needed to flex the blade and take the edge off of the finishing hones. If pressure of any sort is applied, the work is for naught. Let it lay and do proper strokes, weight of the blade.
JMO!

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I have had many discussions about that, and I agree with you. The flex rides the edge upward with the top of the bevel as the fulcrum. Then it is resetting that bevel on a very fine stone. Proved it to my satisfaction with a 60X loupe and a 100x mic.
YMMV of course!
~Richard
PS. Thanks Jimbo and HNSB for the photos and input!

Jimbo got it all right except nowadays we don't use the Sturmey-Archer gaussian random field Newtrometer anymore but the Campagnolo-Shimano gaussian non-random field Fuzzymeter.

Fuzzy-logic solves anything!

Attachment 150487

As others already said some light handed strokes at the end can do miracles but the main problem I've found with beginner honers is they are to light handed on their way to the end.
When they ask if the edge is done I go all Churchill on them, "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Jimbo got it all right except nowadays we don't use the Sturmey-Archer gaussian random field Newtrometer anymore but the Campagnolo-Shimano gaussian non-random field Fuzzymeter.
...

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CSGNRFFs only show differences as you approach the speed of light in a vacuum. I've used them in the LHC (large hone collider) in some dorko matter experiments, and once when searching for the Higgs Boker, but I think they are overkill for simple desktop experiments like this one.

YMMV.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

As others already said some light handed strokes at the end can do miracles but the main problem I've found with beginner honers is they are to light handed on their way to the end.
When they ask if the edge is done I go all Churchill on them, "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning".

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Ugh.. I so wish there were a better way to quantify 'too much' and 'too little'.

Feather light and, weight of the blade only are easy to translate. But everything else becomes entirely nebulous... and Fuzzy.

I read through the whole "JaNorton" thread this week. It's a lot to plow through, but I remember that several members talked about making mental breakthroughs regarding honing pressure. In many cases it boiled down to: going heavier-than-expected for bevel-setting, then moderate pressure on 4k, light on 4k, ultra-light on 4k, moderate on 8k, light on 8k, ultra-light on 8k. In any case, it was interesting to see so many light bulbs going off on the subject of "pressure."

Ultimately it's about lessening the pressure as you go. One process is to simply set the bevel with enough pressure to contact the bevel (on each stone), then lighten the pressure in order to contact the edge (on each stone).

The super-colliders are entirely optional.

This post (humor aside) has been very beneficial to me. The concept of lessening pressure makes perfect sense. If I'm understanding correctly, the heavier pressure flexes the blade slightly and removes material from the spine side of the bevel. As the pressure decreases, blade flex lessens and material is removed closer to the cutting edge of the bevel until the slightest pressure allows material to be removed from the very cutting edge. Seems so simple when imagining what happens to the blade as it flexes.

As a new honer...this seems to make the most sense in helping me understand what is happening.

If I'm confused, let me know.

That's what I take out of it too. :) :tu

This is a helpful thread for newbies like me.:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onegrecook

This post (humor aside) has been very beneficial to me. The concept of lessening pressure makes perfect sense.
If I'm confused, let me know.

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No Confusion! Don't discount the humor in this thread! It has been injected to show the silliness of too much pressure while finishing a razor on the stones. :)
Besides, a chuckle while sharing and learning is a good thing, IMO! :tu

New SR shaver and honer this, I mean last year now.
True say on the pressure paradigm gentlemen.
I was heavy handed on my first few attempts, from 1200 grit bevel set right up through my Norton progressions and found every shave was harsh in comparison to my most recent revisits with only the weight of the blade and finesse above 4k.
Maybe it's partly due to improved muscle memory/technique and a new 3" strop. But the weight of the hand and the biasing of the edge, or lack thereof, has gotten even my TI gentle enough to go ATG without effort, and good results.
I know that both Lynn and Glenn, as well as all the other seasoned contributors on video have all said light pressure, but until you really get the touch and experience against your own jowls for comparison, I bet every new one of us can benefit from backing off the stones, as it were.
Thanks to all those that have helped me get through this stone learning curve. It's been an educational journey.

Kicking myself for missing the Zulu Gray sale that ended new years day.
Grrrr.
Cheers.