Yesterday I received my Naniwa 12000 honing stone and a Naniwa Lapping Stone (not the gigantic one). My question is why is it recommended to use the x-pattern when honing? Why can't I just go straight up and down? And, the Naniwa lapping stone is way smaller than the honing stones so will this unevenly lap the honing stone?
Because going straight up and down the hone will eventually make your edge do this :( the blade should do this :)
Frown = Bad
Smile = Good
Just like in life...
What does the Small lapping stone look like can you link it ????
Should be fine, just use figure 8 patterns
I have a Vid online but I have to apologize in advance the camera angle is not as good as I had hoped for :(
just youtube search "gssixgun honing" and you will find about 30 vids on there
That lapping stone will work but is messy. A diamond plate 300-600 grit is easier but, once the 12K is flat, use the flat side of the flattening stone and be sure to round the edges of the 12K. Wash the 12K stone well in running water and a scrubbing sponge to ensure all the grit from the flattening stone is removed.
An inexpensive silicone carbide stone will also work in place of a diamond plate as a refreshing stone.
That 12K will refresh and finish your razors for many years.
The X pattern honing will hone the Heel and Toe as well as the middle, thus preventing a frown.
The X pattern honing will hone the Heel and Toe as well as the middle, thus preventing a frown.[/QUOTE]
See I don't understand what this means. Doesn't honing without the x pattern do the same? Doesn't honing up and down without the x pattern hone the heel, toe, and middle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaddyOShaver
If the everything was perfectly straight and even Yes you would be correct but they are not..
The edge is not always a straight line in fact, neither is your newly lapped stone and for sure your stoke is not .. The various patterns the X being the most used eliminate all that un-evenness.. Even more importantly the X stroke allows you to form the edge and bevel
This is something that you pretty much have to accept on faith or you have to test it yourself which will eventually result in a Mis-honed razor :banghead:
Note I underlined Eventually,
Gracias me amigo!
Well I honed the razor then used CrOx. The shave was still somewhat rough although it did cut more hair than the last times. Did I not hone it enough?
Width and length of the hone is related to the amount of lateral and forward movement. A razor with an even spine will, or at least should have an even bevel, no smile. This is also reduces the amount of lateral motion in your stroke to cover the entire bevel.
It depends on what condition the edge was when you honed on the 12K. The 12K is a great finishing or touch-up stone for maintenance. But maintenance is not repair.
We change the oil in our cars for maintenance, but once your motor starts to knock, changing the oil is not going to do much to make it run better.
So were you doing maintenance or repair? Can you re-hone( touch-up) on a 12k? Sure, but that is nothing like maintenance.
What is the current condition of your edge?
Look straight down on your edge with magnification and a strong light. Any shinny reflections are spots where the bevels are not meeting in a straight edge. Any shinny spots will have to be honed until the bevels meet, many laps on the 12K or fewer on a lower grit stone depending on the size of the shinny spots.
Or it could be honing technique, or most probably your stropping technique.
Stropping ruins more edges with novice honers, because it only takes one errant lap, lifting the spine before the razor stops moving to damage the edge. A keen razor edge is a very fragile thing.
A pasted strop is even more unforgiving that plain leather.
Before you do anything else that may further damage the edge, examine the edge to find out what it needs.
I purchased both of my razors from SRD and they have been rough to shave with with the exception when I got some theirs is said paste. The ti paste made the shaves better. I just need to use a polishing stone with these razors and I need to develop my technique that much I am sure of. You may be correct about my stopping technique. I have some older razors that I need to set the bevel so I am going to get the Norton combination set. But the razors I purchased from SRD don't need repair. Do you think it's my inexperienced honing? My shave was still a little rough but my beard is tough in my opinion. However with this shave it cut more hair than any other shave.
If you got the razors from SRD they WERE shave ready!
Did you strop BEFORE you shaved with it? :nono:
I ask this because you said they were always rough to shave with.
You could have dulled it from your stropping?
With a properly sharpened blade there should be NO tugging or pulling of ANY kind.
This most likely is technique related.
Being either:
1. Improper Stropping
2. Improper Angle
3. Improper Skin Stretching
4. Improper Honing
5. A combination of ANY or ALL of the above.
It is a BIG learning curve to SR shave, plus put in the learning curve to maintain your razors and you can see how easy it is to have less than desirable results!
Keep at it and keep working on proper technique. If you can find someone to mentor you that will put you WAY ahead of the pack in the learning curve.
Good Luck Bro!
I’m not talking about what the edge looked like when you got it.
What did it look like when you first put it on the stone?
And more importantly, what does it look like now, because the edge from before is like Jerry Garcia, “Gone man, he’s gone.” It does not matter who honed it or how they honed it.
The edge will tell you what needs to be done.
The importance of stropping cannot be overrated. You can repair an edge by stropping, Leather and Linen, stropping on paste, touch-up honing, re-honing stepping down in grit and by re-setting the bevel.
If they are not shaving properly, it is either your shaving technique or the edge is no longer straight and bevels are meeting (it is Damaged). You don’t have to bang it on the sink to damage the edge.
How you repair the damage depends on the damage.
The blade looks the same then as is does now. I don't have a microscope.
By using the x-pattern rather than just going back and forth, you will compensate for any inconsistencies in the grind, flatness of the stone and possibly your own stroke technique. At least that is the goal. Good luck.
For about $10 you can get a loupe from ebay, this is a small magnifier that jewellers etc use mine has 30 and 60x magnification and.built in led lights.
Here's my take on the x pattern. Guys focus on the x pattern, when clearly we also discuss other patterns, like circles. "Going straight" down the stone is fine, to a point. Later, sharpness is really enhanced by using no pressure and the correct pressure influence on the blade. Again, just my opinion, but, allow my to elaborate.
It's not so much the pattern that is important, although that historically used to be the theory (search striations) for more on that.
For example, you could push the razor upward on the hone and still be following an x pattern. I don't know anyone that ever recommended that though.
You'll notice that guys that talk about going straight down the hone usually also use the word "push". "Why can't I JUST push it down the hone". The inferred reasoning given, by the way, is never about an increase in sharpness, it's always about the imagined difficulty of using an x pattern.
Honing is difficult.
So, back to how you hone without using ANY pressure. Let's imagine a car. If I ask you to push the car, you would often get behind it and push down on the trunk, or down from the bumper, and push. You'd be using a lot of downward force. You might not really accept that,with a razor, but it's more intuitive with this analogy. Now if I asked you to pull the car instead. For some odd reason you'd probably go to the front of the car and reach under the bumper, even though I didn't give any dirctions to do so, and you'd pull upward and toward you. There'd be less pressure on the tires nearest you. Razors don't have suspensions, so don't get too crazy with my analogy.
Let's go back to razors. The scales are being held in your hand. How do you pull the razor? Or, another question, how do you push it without applying ANY downforce?
The simple answer is you move the razor off the lower part of the stone, pulling it toward you, keeping your end lifted a bit to keep the blade flat. With this direction the spine prevents you from being able to apply pressure to the edge. The spine of the razor can't go INTO the hone.
The entire edge gets some honing action this way regardless of any hone issues created when you built the bevel.
You could lap after every so and so many strokes and go straight down the hone. The edge gets pretty sharp. But, where do you push from? If you push from the scales how do you control the pressure across the entire edge?
Now, if I pull the razor toward me, I'm controlling the pressure in a linear fashion.
Imagine if I asked you to hone a heavy rope, but, I insisted that the rope be honed evenly across its entire length, after every single stroke. If you fail, I kill you.
You think about it for a bit and realize that the top of the rope isn't going to move as smoothly as the part near your hand. And, clearly being brilliant, you slowly realize that the best way to hone the rope, with each stroke, and ensure equivilant pressure along the entire rope as you go is: to pull the rope toward you for pressure control, AND, across the stone for motion (motion = abrasion).
Now, watch any beginner hone and you'll see the razor tip flying all over the place. Forward and backward of the centerline, during each stroke. You might think, if you watched with fast- motion photography that they were meaning to hone with pressure and really swing the tip from side to side.
The problem with a lot of folks is that they think the objective is to remove metal. It's really not. If you just remove metal you'll remove metal from the spine, as much, if not more (it's the heavy end of the razor, after all), from the spine than the edge.
Grinding the razor down isn't the objective. It's leaving the edge as thin as possible, equally, all along the edge.
This, has to be accomplished. It's the critical final step. It's part of why expert honers often say "less is better", or, "less is more".
We don't really want the razor pushed down the hone. It can be done, it's how many factories do the "factory honing". But, they are careful about their strokes and they ensure the tip stays controlled. They are experts. However, they also aren't too concerned with sharpness, either.
The x pattern looks hard, and it sounds hard, but trying to hone a razor, to shave ready condition, without it -- is the really challenge. Stay open to the idea of using no pressure at the end of your honing process; the x pattern will eventually become the "go-to" stroke in your honing pattern arsenal.
Explanation!
Well I honed my second razor and it was better than the last one. I think my problem was not having the edge flat on the stone the whole time for my first honing session. The second time I paid more attention and had a much better shave. I honed it, used CrOx and stropped it. The shave was pretty good but I want to get better. I don't think my problem was stropping I think it was honing. I do have another question: should I rehone the first razor, maybe with 4 strokes?
You should master shaving/stropping before honing - I did the reverse and it was a rough road.
A razor from SRD is ready to go for months if you strop and shave with good technique.
If you've done any damage stropping or honing on the 12K you will need to go back to setting the bevel on a 1K stone to get the razor back to shave-ready condition. That whole process takes some time to learn.
I'm not trying to discourage you, but you may want to send the razor to be honed by a pro and practice honing from the bottom up on an eBay special.
Once you get honing down on a razor you don't care about you can have confidence honing your more expensive razors.
Watch as many videos as possible and ask as many questions as you can think of.
-john
I rehoned the first razor and the shave was much better. It was much more pleasant and didn't tug and pull. It still possible that the bevel needs reset, not sure though. Just letting everyone know. Thanks!