My honing experience so far

I am sure this all sounds like the same ol' but I thought I would share my honing experience. I am new to honing razors but have some experience in knives. I got a Norton 4k/8K that I lapped in with a Norton dressing stone, a Japanese waterstone, also lapped and a balsa board with Tormek honing paste.
My razor is new to me and in great shape. I started with just stropping it and it would shave ok in the light weeds but was kinda rough in the thicker. I tried Lynn's refresher method and the razor seemed worse, then tried the full hone method with no improvement. So I decided to lightly kill the edge then I tried his full hone method again and it didn't improve much. After a few more tries followed with, hitting it on the 12k stone and always finishing with the strop, I saw some improvement and thought It would be OK to try a shave with it. It did OK, I was able to do my full face down stroke only without any snags and it definitely did much better on my thick chin area. I felt like it could do better so I gave it one more shot but this time I added in about 100 strokes on the treated balsa followed with canvas and leather stropping. It finally cleanly passed the HHT and easily cuts my arm hair. I haven't tried to shave with it but I confident it should do just fine.
So, now I am wondering was it the run on the treated balsa that finally got it their or was it just that it took that many hones to get the edge proper. Every video I have seen on honing, no one seems to need to go much beyond a what Lynn does in his normal hone video. What is a bit bewildering to me is the cutting edge looks and feels the same when performing the thumb pad test as before I started all this honing.
For the time being, I am assuming that shaving and stropping will only make the edge better. Hopefully future hones will only be of the light touch up type.

All I really know is that the next time the razor needs honed be careful to correct the apparent frown. You should also learn about the various sharpness tests, I find the magnified LRT to be the most useful.

Jonathan

I think the image is a little distorted. Its flat. At some point in its life, someone got a little carried away with grinding the heel. Noticeable on the left side of the photo.
Thanks for the link.

I'm new to honing; so take what follows with a grain of salt. I've found that when I was first starting to hone the problem was that I was moving up on grits too quickly. I'd start on a polishing grit before I got a bevel set. I've found that one should do more low grit honing than high grit. Really make sure that you have an even bevel and that the edge is undercutting water evenly across the length of the blade and that you don't feel any extra dragging on any part of the edge on the stone. Only when everything seems even should you move up a grit.

Nice looking blade you have there :)

Adding 100 laps on the balsa is bound to have some effect, but if you missed out on the lower grits, it cannot correct that. Honing takes quite a bit of practise and razor edges are very sensitive to the amount of pressure, evenness of strokes and the number of strokes you use.

My best guess is that you did a better job the last time on the hones. You may want to try the pyramid method, it helped me a lot. Also, note that 100 laps on crox is not recommended as it can lead to overhoning, where the edge gets too thin and crumbles during a shave. That's why all the videos show just 10 laps or so, if you've got the lower grits right, that's all you need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperSpeedRacer

I'm new to honing; so take what follows with a grain of salt. I've found that when I was first starting to hone the problem was that I was moving up on grits too quickly. I'd start on a polishing grit before I got a bevel set. I've found that one should do more low grit honing than high grit. Really make sure that you have an even bevel and that the edge is undercutting water evenly across the length of the blade and that you don't feel any extra dragging on any part of the edge on the stone. Only when everything seems even should you move up a grit.

---

+1 on this.

Make sure the bevel is set on the 1K or whatever you're using to set the bevel. I like to look at the edge with a 40x loupe and see how well it shaves arm hair all along the length of the blade.

Once you have a good bevel all you need to do is polish the edge with the higher grits which typically goes pretty fast.

-john

My balsa strop is only about 12" long and I use about 8" of it. I try to avoid overdoing it. If I get a less then a decent shave out of it, I'm going to take a break and use my CJB Kamasori for awhile. Figure it would best to walk away then get frustrated.

Im gonna ninja the thread. I just got my naniwa waterstones and started playing with honeing. I got 1k,5k,8k and 10k. The blade looked clean and had a nice edge (only very dull). I starte out on the 1k with a few 10 x-strokes sets, moved on to 5k did the same and continued to 8k and did the same. At this point I was even struggling cutting arm hair. I went back to 5k and did a lot of x-strokes. A lot. Now it shaves arm hair ok.

I have been doing alot of strokes so I don't feel like I have gotten anything out of my work. Do you guys think I shoul spend more time setting the bevel on the 1k? Or should I just keep honeing on the 5k?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iMAGINE

Im gonna ninja the thread. I just got my naniwa waterstones and started playing with honeing. I got 1k,5k,8k and 10k. The blade looked clean and had a nice edge (only very dull). I starte out on the 1k with a few 10 x-strokes sets, moved on to 5k did the same and continued to 8k and did the same. At this point I was even struggling cutting arm hair. I went back to 5k and did a lot of x-strokes. A lot. Now it shaves arm hair ok.

I have been doing alot of strokes so I don't feel like I have gotten anything out of my work. Do you guys think I shoul spend more time setting the bevel on the 1k? Or should I just keep honeing on the 5k?

---

You have to be sure the bevel is set on the 1k before proceeding to higher grits - if the bevel isn't perfect the final result will be disappointing.

The razor should effortlessly shave arm hair - they should just pop right off when the edge hits them at skin level. A 40x LED loupe from Amazon is also very helpful. I use these two tests in combo to ensure a good bevel and then polish the edge.

John

Is that the only way to ensure you have a good bevel, by looking? I guess I need to do some work at 1k first then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iMAGINE

Is that the only way to ensure you have a good bevel, by looking? I guess I need to do some work at 1k first then.

---

You can look, shave, do the thumb pad test, the nail test etc.

You can read all about these in the Wiki.

I like to look and test the edge by seeing how "willingly" it shaves my arm hair - everyone has their own ways of testing the bevel. You need to figure out what works best for you and stick with that.

John

It's a very good post. It can be frustrating. For me honing has two big issues. Diagnosis: clearly understanding the current geometry and applying the correct honing game plan, and patience: accepting that ultra high grit stones might be really slow.

The two create symbiotic like problems. You can hone for an hour and not see any improvement, and then get hit with the sense that you shouldn't be seeing any improvement anyway.

Eventually you learn to either see or feel changes instantly or know what to do to start achieving change.

Now, even today, I get a little stumped when people produce edges that are worse than when they started. I think that is created by effective contact, something most people have to work for a long time to achieve, followed by an inconsistent stroke.

You need diagnoses, full geometric bevel contact, then lots and lots of good consistent strokes -- polishing and honing.

I think the key everyone knows but no one has said is, "frustrating". If your frustrated, then it is hard to make it better. Take a step back, watch a movie, walk the dog, whatever. Then come back and work on it some more but most importantly, Have fun with it. If it isn't fun, then why do it.

Congratulations on taking up the challenge. Honing by hand is part science and part art.

The biggest mistake I see newbies make is too many strokes edge on, especially at the higher grits. Set the bevel with edge on strokes at the 1k and 4k level, but then finish with stropping strokes only at 8k on up. This will prevent you from killing the edge with too many strokes. I am a big fan of balsa CrO, and of course finish with leather.

The advice on this thread is very good. If you don't have a perfect bevel set at the lower grits, then it is unlikely that you will reach the blades full potential with more strokes at the finer grits.

Hang in there.

Attachment 153749

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gammaray

Congratulations on taking up the challenge. Honing by hand is part science and part art.

The biggest mistake I see newbies make is too many strokes edge on, especially at the higher grits. Set the bevel with edge on strokes at the 1k and 4k level, but then finish with stropping strokes only at 8k on up. This will prevent you from killing the edge with too many strokes. I am a big fan of balsa CrO, and of course finish with leather.

The advice on this thread is very good. If you don't have a perfect bevel set at the lower grits, then it is unlikely that you will reach the blades full potential with more strokes at the finer grits.

Hang in there.

Attachment 153749

---

You're not suggesting spine leading strokes here are you?

I 'm just guessing but I doubt any of the SRP honemeisters use stropping strokes at 8k & up.
A light touch & simply not doing too many stokes will prevent you from killing the edge not the direction you hone.

Yes, I am suggesting only stropping strokes above 4k for newbies. Not as a long term solution, but to prevent killing the edge with too many edge forward strokes. This is not my usual routine, but I have seen it work for sons, brothers, and friends that I have helped to get started, until they are learn that "less is more" when it comes to honing the edge to perfection.

For what it is worth, the three stage honing of DE blades is done entirely in the stropping direction. The rotating, spiral grinders never go against the edge. This can be a very valid approach, especially when getting started. But it takes longer than edge forward strokes.

I use a couple of indicators for when the bevel is set. First, I feel for whether there's any part of the edge that drags more on the stone when I'm honing. What I'm looking for is that the entire edge smoothly glides over the stone. I also look for the edge undercutting the water evenly. I also hold the blade up to light and see if it reflects evenly all across the bevel. Finally, I use the thumbpad test and feel for the edge grabbing my thumb all along the length of the blade. Also I should be able to pop hair all along the blade. When that's the case I move up to a polishing grit.

P.S. I'd also suggest watching gssixgun's videos on honing. I used them to go from never honed anything but pocket knives to consistently getting awesome edges from completely dulled razors in less than a month.

So I just got done with my evening shave. Got some fresh Arko in the mail to try. The razor performed well. I have a very anglular face so I am still working on my technique. It may not be perfect but good enough to move forward.
On another note, I am digging the Arko. I love the smell! Threw some osage rub on top of it and I feel like a king. Nice and clean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I 'm just guessing but I doubt any of the SRP honemeisters use stropping strokes at 8k & up.
A light touch & simply not doing too many stokes will prevent you from killing the edge not the direction you hone.

---

+1

I'm no honemeister but I've never used stropping strokes on a hone and I get pretty consistent results most of the time.

-john

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gammaray

Yes, I am suggesting only stropping strokes above 4k for newbies. Not as a long term solution, but to prevent killing the edge with too many edge forward strokes. This is not my usual routine, but I have seen it work for sons, brothers, and friends that I have helped to get started, until they are learn that "less is more" when it comes to honing the edge to perfection.

For what it is worth, the three stage honing of DE blades is done entirely in the stropping direction. The rotating, spiral grinders never go against the edge. This can be a very valid approach, especially when getting started. But it takes longer than edge forward strokes.

---

Hey, if it works for you then it works for you. Many things on this forum are validated with YMMV. I have tried things that many would not recommend but they worked and in the end it's about having fun.

I couldn't resist, I had to give it one more go. I gave it 8 light laps on the 8k stone and a good stropping. Skipped the 12k stone. I needed to shave again this morning. I don't know what it is but since I started wet shaving my facial growth comes in much faster. Tried the HHT and it pretty well failed. I said screw it and used it to shave with this morning. I got one heck of a smooth shave with it. Not perfect but pretty darn good. Didn't even struggle with the thick chin weeds. Atleast I didn't get any nicks or cuts. A little razor burn but that is no doubt my beginner technique.

Good to hear of your success! And you've just proven to yourself that the HHT is not a reliable indicator of good shaves. When you do regular honing and use the HHT a lot with the same type of hair over and over, you will start distinguishing the results of the HHT and relate them to edge sharpness. Once you've done this sort of calibration, it will become a more reliable test.

So, I am now convinced that the problem wasn't my honing technique but rather my strop. Its a new horsehide strop that was quite stiff. After a some use it seems to be losening up. Now my razor is performing really well now. Matter fact, I didn't even have to clean up with my DE for the first time tonight.
I borrowed some of my wifes hair and it passed the HHT like a champ. My hair not quite as well. I guess the HHT could have some deviation depending on the hair used when performing it.
Any thoughts?

The HHT must always be calibrated to the hairs you have available, if all else fails buy an old boar bristle brush, re-knot it, and save the bristles just for HHTs. Good stropping will always improve an edge, a razor with a just ok test shave can become a good one on the second or third shave just from stropping. Jonathan