Question about Over-Honing

After watching Lynn's DVD several times and reading as many articles as I can, the concept of over-honing still confuses me. I understand that an over-honed edge will pass over whiskers without cutting them but I don't really understand what is going on with the blade. Is an overhoned edge the same thing as a wire edge or burr? Does this mean that the edge is too long and brittle or is this something different?

Another thing that confuses me is the fact that Lynn says that he fixes a wire edge (over-honed?) by going back to the 4K side of the Norton. How can doing more honing fix a problem that was caused by too much honing in the first place?

I am thinking that over-honing may have to do with too many passes with a finishing type stone or paste which would cause the edge to become too weak or drawn out to a wire. The course stones like a 4K Norton can cause excessive wear to the metal of the razor but it may not be fine enough to cause the wire edge (it would in fact remove it and start over with the finishing). Is this thinking correct or flawed?

If this thinking is correct then it would seem that when using courser stones it is important not to do too many strokes because it would cause excessive and unnecessary wear on the blade; and when using the finishing stones and pastes it is important not to do too many strokes because it would cause an over-honed and/or wire edge. Is this the concept behind the pyramid method?

Addressing your questions in order. An overhoned edge is, as you probably suspect, an edge that is torn up by trying to make it too thin from honing. Once you tear up the edge it crumbles all up. Its no longer a bevel its just a mess of crushed up steel. Its kinda like if you were trying to grate some cheese into a sharp point and all at once the tip broke off and you had just a hunk of chesse in your hand.

Returning to the 4K allows you not only to tear off the remnants but begin reforming the bevel. It works very well.

I prefer to back hone myself.

It is one of the driving ideas behind pyramiding, along with a few other simply concepts. The ratio of strokes is great to get a bevel and smooth it out. 4K=bevel, 8k=smoothing

I don't have any personal experience with a wire edge. I don't know how its created and have never witnessed one, but I hone differently than most people. I may have had a wire edge but never saw one in the microscope. What I usually see are little "stars" from over honing. These are little crater/cuts in the edge where your pretty and smooth bevel once existed.

I find it hard to overhone if you use a high grit and a slow hone, but thats just me. I used to overhone all the time when pyramiding, so it can be done. All you have to do is make the bevel too thin and it crumbles from the next stroke.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Your explanations definately make a lot sense and the cheese analogy made me smile :) . Do you think that it is more difficult to get an over-honed edge with pasted strops than with polishing stones since the plade is being dragged rather than being pushed through the abbrasive medium? Also would someone be able to explain exactly what a wire edge is at the blade level if it is different than the over-honed edge.

Thanks

I think your equally able to get overhoned with stones or pastes. With stones you can make corrections easier. Your grinding down the bevel so it doesn't matter too much, except most people use very high grit pastes. A few years ago, when I was really into pastes as low as 4k I used to think that it was easier to overhone with pastes because I was attacking the bevel from behind and it seemed to lose strength/support like if you pulled a single cheerleader from the base of a big pyramid (there is another analogy for you). Your tearing at the bevel from the opposing direction.

Now I think its just equal stones/pastes whatever, too much honing is too much honing.

A wire edge is the addition of a rounded crumbled non sharp edge all along the edge where sharpness is supposed to be.

Someone else will surely jump in later. Since I've never seen one microscopically I'm probably not able to describe it well.

An overhoned edge, when its really bad (I used to really suck at honing btw) looks like a pretty mountain range under the microscope. Not straight or smooth at all.

Ok, no more analogies. And my time is pretty cheap! We're all here to help you out.

I also have been unsure of the overhoned part of honing for a while.
Is the feeling of the shave very different from a sharp blade. Often i feel like i making far too many passes on a hone without it getting sharp, but it never gets to the point where it just passes over the hairs and doesn't cut them.
All of my razors i have are sharp enough to shave my face with, its just a matter of how comfortable it does it. Will an overhoned blade still shave?
My most comfortable shaves usually come from two specific razors but i still feel that they can be sharper and improved, but i am afraid to hone them any more, because i don't want to overhone and then have to get them to the fairly comfortable stage again.
I guess when i can afford it then i should buy a shave ready razor so I know what mark i am aiming for, then i will not be worried about overhoning, as i will know when i have reached the properly 'shave ready' stage.
Nick

Ahhhh well fortunately I have lots of experience shaving with overhoned edges...LOL

This whole business about them simply not cutting is odd. I have found they do shave ok. It depends on how badly they are overhoned.

To me they feel like shaving with a shard of glass as opposed to a razor.

They pass the HHT test like gangbusters though, you have to watch out for that if HHT tests are the only ones you use.

I think this is the best info I've read on this subject yet ----

Justin

IMO a big warning sign of overhoning is when the hair actually "pops" or "pings" away from the blade in the various hair tests.

There are degrees of overhoning, in the earlier stages the blade is sharper but still too weak to survive many shaves, but it may do ok for a shave or two. At greater levels of overhoning the edge gets weaker and weaker until it can't survive even one stroke. Sometimes the edge folds over like the tip of a snow ski and the edge just rides over your whiskers wiping lather off but not cutting a thing. Sometimes (usually for me) the edge folds the other way and you get something like a paper cut before the edge breaks off into your skin. And sometimes the edge will break off and tear on the hone, and you'll get this ragged-looking edge under the scope. Except that sometimes this ragged-looking edge is just microchipping because of grit in your hone, or rotten steel (ebay razors), or just really brittle steel (wacker, sta-sharp, couple of others).

I have had overhoned edges break off and embed themselves in my hone. I'll be honing along and the razor will kind of do this hop on the hone, and suddenly it's dull and there's something stuck in my hone that I've got to pick out with a magnifying glass and tweezers.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I have had overhoned edges break off and embed themselves in my hone. I'll be honing along and the razor will kind of do this hop on the hone, and suddenly it's dull and there's something stuck in my hone that I've got to pick out with a magnifying glass and tweezers.

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Is there any chance of it breaking off into your face?

Justin

Does creating the bevel refer to making the thin metal fin that cuts the whiskers after being aligned with the strop, or is the bevel something else? If so, is the bevel created with the 4K and polished and refined with the 8K?

The latter. The bevel is the angulated section of the shaving edge of the razor. The fin is a cutting section along the edge created by the cross striations of the opposing x pattern strokes. The fin is aligned by a strop. It rides along the edge.

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Is there any chance of it breaking off into your face?

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Sure. This is usually what happens to me (see my post above). It's microscopic though, so there's not really any harm done.

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

Does creating the bevel refer to making the thin metal fin that cuts the whiskers after being aligned with the strop, or is the bevel something else? If so, is the bevel created with the 4K and polished and refined with the 8K?

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Creating the bevel is simply cutting the flats until they meet at the edge. The actual edge is made up of these roughly triangular teeth left after the abrasive particles have gouged out microscopic grooves down the bevel. This series of cutting teeth is called the "fin" though it's really a series of finlike structures all down the edge. Once the 4k hone has cut the basic bevel, then the higher grits are used to polish the bevel and form these teeth.

The reason this is tricky is that the abrasive particles distort the steel at the edge because of the violence of the action (they're ripping a channel down the bevel, after all). Going to finer abrasives, slower abrasives, and using very light pressure helps keep this distortion down to a minimum so you can get a very clean, sharp, well-formed fin.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Sure. This is usually what happens to me (see my post above). It's microscopic though, so there's not really any harm done.

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Yeah -- I missed the part where you said it broke off into your skin.


Justin

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

If this thinking is correct then it would seem that when using courser stones it is important not to do too many strokes because it would cause excessive and unnecessary wear on the blade; and when using the finishing stones and pastes it is important not to do too many strokes because it would cause an over-honed and/or wire edge. Is this the concept behind the pyramid method?

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This is exactly right in my experience. Smart thinking.

I spent a little time intentionally :eek: creating an overhoned edge and in my experience;

1. It doesn't always have a noticeable wire.
2. It will pass HHT, but with a very obvious 'ting', not the silent deadly and effortless clip that is perfect.
3. It leaves a terrible rash even with minimal pressure.
4. It will cut whiskers, but not well. You'll likely want to start using force which will only make the rash worse.

X

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The latter. The bevel is the angulated section of the shaving edge of the razor. The fin is a cutting section along the edge created by the cross striations of the opposing x pattern strokes. The fin is aligned by a strop. It rides along the edge.

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It would seem that regular honing on a stone would create cross striations that go from the toe to the heal of the bade (from spine to edge) while the honing on a pasted strop or bench hone would create cross striations that go the opposite direction due to the back-honing method. Does this have a negative effect on the quality of the fin created by the channel in the bevel?

Not if you hone straight across instead of with the blade angled or in an X pattern.

But otherwise, yeah. I'd expect that if you paddle with the blade angled then you'll grind away the hone's serrations in a few passes, then proceed to making new (smaller) ones angled the other way.

Same thing is true with stropping BTW. There plenty of debate over how abrasive an unpasted leather strop is, but there's definitely some smoothing action that occurs during plain stropping.

I hone straight across unless there's a problem with the razor.

Theres always a problem with the razor! :)

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

It would seem that regular honing on a stone would create cross striations that go from the toe to the heal of the bade (from spine to edge) while the honing on a pasted strop or bench hone would create cross striations that go the opposite direction due to the back-honing method. Does this have a negative effect on the quality of the fin created by the channel in the bevel?

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I think in theory that it might, but in practice, nobody complains of it. I think that the cross hatching that happens with using both methods of honing in sequence is fine.

X

Does anyone recommend stropping on the pastes the opposite way (dragging the blade from the toe to the heel)? In theory this would keep the striations the same way as with the stones.

I think its too hard to push the razor like that smoothly. I've always prefered a pulling motion.

But, we are always open to anything, anyone wants to try, as long as we don't have to watch. :)

Maybe I was not clear in what I meant. I did not mean pushing the blade through like on a honing stone. I meant dragging the blade like in a stropping stropping, but instead of the x-stroke going from the heal to the toe it would be the opposite.

I think I understood you. I'll let others chime in. If you feel comfortable with it go ahead though. The way I think of stropping from tip to heel involves pushing it in a sideways motion away from the body. But it is so very hard to picture some of this stuff from text.