The Thumb Tests

Hi,

Most of my honing has been with razors that were sold to me with an excellent sharp edge. All I've used is the 8K side and a pasted strop. I've been able to keep them sharp and comfortable for shaving using primarily the HHT. I've de-rustified a bunch of ebay razors and have had no luck at getting them shave ready using a 1K and 4k/8k Nortons. I'm often impatient and I'm trying to run along this learning curve fast. I do take my time honing and want to be good at it. I'm trying the thumb and the thumbnail tests and read many descriptions of what to look for in the sensations, but I'm just not "feeling it". Yes, I do have feeling in my hands :-) I have a nice new TI that's in great shaving shape and I can't tell that it's sharp from either thumb test. It will do the HHT, but I think a thumb test will allow me to tell where I am more quickly? so I'm calling out for some help on these tests.

Thanks much,
Steve

I think I might disagree a little, but I won't. So your razors are not getting sharp. If they are passing the HHT test your at the bottom level of sharpness. A thumb nail test won't do squat for you. Thats a test used at a low end of dull. A thumb pad test is for after stropping. So, lets see. Passes HHT. How does it shave? Lets go over a scale first . . .

10=shaves great
9= shaves ok
8= passes thumbpad
7= shaves fair
6= passes HHT
5= shaves poor/pulls
4= pulls alot, causes damage, cuts, irritation
3= passes thumbnail test
2= poor bevel
1= poor bevel, oxidized edge etc.

Once you get to the HHT, its all about smoothing and making good high quality strokes on the hone using little to no pressure. Your technique is critical, your stroke must be perfect.

This is where most guys say they don't use an x pattern and don't think its important (despite getting stuck here). Is that true for you too?

Are you using a perfect stroke, ensuring equal pressure on high grit, ensuring the angle is exactly the same on each side of the bevel, and ensuring that each stroke is the same length on each side?

Keep working the bevel, smoothing it out, with discipline and low/no pressure and it should start to get sharper. At this point, shaving tests will probably be a better indicator for you.

If that fails, I do one pass on each side with 4K and start all over again.

I live over in VA, wanna just stop by and I'll show you? :)

Alan,

Thanks so much for that scale! I hadn't seen anything like that before in my e-travels. Maybe I really haven't had the best possible straight shave. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the ebay razors aren't even passing HHT. I haven't been using the X-pattern because I kinda thought the 3" hone was wide enough. Your offer for me to visit is very generous and I may take you up on it. I need to spend some time woodshedding with these hones.
-Steve

Ahhh, no HHT is different. This is where I go back and read your post and get embarrased.

Anyway, if no HHT then we have a whole new set of dilemmas. It still surprises me how many guys I can tell use an X pattern or not just by one post.

Ok, so at this point I think I would pyramid a little if your not even getting HHT results yet. But extend out your 8K passes as you approach HHT. When you get done you'll see HHT as a big huge scale, not a yes it cuts or no it doesn't .

It should cut trepidly at first, and then sometimes fail, and then it should start cutting whiskers with real authority as you go. The closer you get through this process the more you should cut back on 4K strokes and try and get as close as you can with the 8k and return.

But for now, just some 1/5s should get you through HHT I would think, its pretty easy to get HHT with some practice. Just don't think you should shave with an edge that dull (errrrrr unsharp?). HHT is a good indicator but not a shave ready indicator.

Oh and some guys can't pass HHT because of the hair they use.

I have an open invitation to anyone on the forum, they can stop by and I'll hone a razor for them and provide 2-3 hours of instruction. No sweat.

First off DON'T use the TNT unless you believe the edge to be damaged and you want to see how much. Your thumbnail is agressive enough to damage your shaving edge. Besides it feels to me exactly like fingernails on a chalkboard sounds and I can do without that.

The TPT requires a very sensitive attention to minor changes but what I have noticed in the progression is this.

1. The edge feels sharp, like a well honed knife, ready to cut a tomato effortlessly, but this won't shave. This is what I usually feel off the 4k Norton.
2. The edge starts to refine and provide a slight tickling sensation. This would be considered 'scary sharp' for most knives. It won't quite shave well though, pulling to various degrees.
3. The blade starts to exhibit a slight gripping or biting in sensation. Just as this starts I move to the HHT. If it's right the shave can be great.
4. The overhoned edge grabs or bites in to the thumb pad very easily, but had trouble shaving comfortably. Definitely too much work on the 8k and it's time to go back to the 4k for more than just a 3/3, 1/3, 1/3.

Each blade is different and there are many shades of grey in what I've described, but that's my general sense of it.

X

Should you always be able to pass the HHT before doing a shave test? I have heard lots of guys on the forums saying that they can't pass the HHT, but they have great shavers. Others say they pass the HHT, but the shave is lousy - so what gives?

If I'm honing with my 4k/8k, should I do pyramids until I can pass the HHT without a doubt before moving on to shaving with it? I only ask, because I know "less is more" and want to try avoid overhoning.

Any advice?

Unfortunately it depends on the hair you choose. I recommend getting a chest hair or other "firm/stiff" hair for these tests not hair from your head. That won't work well. This is why we recommend buying a sharp razor from a member first, for a benchmark. To try testing like the HHT or looking at them in a microscope before ever shaving with them.

You may have to resort to shave testing, which is not too big a deal but you can cause some pretty serious irritation that way.

I would never shave with a razor that doesn't pass the HHT for my hair.

The HHT is just another measuring rod like the TT. Each man has to interperet the results of these tests and what they mean for himself. The bald bachelor will have a tough time getting the information he needs from the HHT so he'll have to develop the other ways of determining when to move on to the shave test.

These days I often have razors that pass the HHT but don't shave that well since I'm trying to see where the minimum limit is with my honing. If they turn out like this a few gentle 1/3 passes usually get them ewhere they need to be.

If you're starting to overhone the edge, go back to the 4k for about 5 or 10 laps and work back down the pyramid. That usually starts the process back at the 'beginning'.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

Should you always be able to pass the HHT before doing a shave test? I have heard lots of guys on the forums saying that they can't pass the HHT, but they have great shavers. Others say they pass the HHT, but the shave is lousy - so what gives?

If I'm honing with my 4k/8k, should I do pyramids until I can pass the HHT without a doubt before moving on to shaving with it? I only ask, because I know "less is more" and want to try avoid overhoning.

Any advice?

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I've also noticed with the HHT that technique in applying the hair to the blade is important too, and this changes with different types of hair. Some hair can just be placed on the blade and will slice. With some of the finer types of hair it appears the test fails unless you make sure you know which way the "grain" runs and give a little pull across the blade against this grain - maybe that's cheating, I don't know .... But consistency in the application of the HHT at all parts of the blade is important - it's not a matter of getting the hair to cut at any cost at different parts of the blade, when at other parts just a gentle waft does the trick.

So this is just a guess, but maybe some of the reason for the variability you mention in posts from other members can be attributed to differences in application of the test. On top of variability in hairs used, blade types etc. I mean.

But in any event, I tend to use the HHT as a relative test of the edge, not an absolute test of whether the blade shaves well. So I use the HHT to see which parts of the blade pass and which don't - usually middle versus ends of the blade etc. Of course, if your honing stroke is good all parts of the blade will pass, but it's good to check just in case...

So I'd say yes to your question, but just add that the HHT should pass, or at least perform the same, along all parts of the useable edge - ie you don't have to try harder at different parts to get the hair to cut.

At least then you know the edge is consistent in relative terms. What that means about the sharpness of the edge in absolute terms is a different question altogether in my opinion. For me, only the shave test answers this...

James.

Questions:

1) How is a razor passing the HHT different from a razor cutting hair on the face?

2) If your razor can't easily grab and slice a hair sticking out from between your thumb and finger, then why would that same razor perform any differently on your beard?

3) Just as it is with the "thumb tests," Isn't it the "quality" of the HHT that matters?


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Questions:

1) How is a razor passing the HHT different from a razor cutting hair on the face?

2) If your razor can't easily grab and slice a hair sticking out from between your thumb and finger, then why would that same razor perform any differently on your beard?

3) Just as it is with the "thumb tests," Isn't it the "quality" of the HHT that matters?


Scott

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Sott - I'm assuming those questions are for me - apologies if they're rhetorical.

1. I find the hair anchor point is different between the HHT and a shave. And the blade is touching the skin for a shave. And the whiskers on my face, especially when short (like after one day post shave) lie at different angles to the blade when it cuts. I guess I feel the HHT is a simulated shave, and I've had enough experience with simulations in my life to know they can't possibly reflect all the nuances of the real thing;

2. One reason might be the hair you use for the HHT. If it doesn't approximate your facial hair very well, you might not pass the HHT but get a good shave nonetheless;

3. I agree 100%. It's just that, for me, a pass on the HHT, even a high quality pass, isn't the end of the story.

I mean, and this is a genuine question because I'm ignorant of what the honemeisters actually do, but do honemeisters pass the HHT (or any other non-shave test, for that matter) and send back the razor straight away, or do they test shave first? If they test shave, why?

James.

I always test shave. Even if the person I'm honing the razor for is standing right next to me. I don't even ask for permission. After that, if the "client" knows how to shave already I let him shave with the razor. The pinnacle of honing is to hone for each differing beard and facial type. The problem with HHT is that just cutting hair is only half the battle. The point is to be able to pass the edge smoothly along the skin, shave hair, and have no irritation. An overhoned edge passes an HHT pretty well. Shave with it though and you get irritation.

I have no idea what honemiesters do, but I've heard Lynn mention having irritation from honing (your talking lots of razors in a single day).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I mean, and this is a genuine question because I'm ignorant of what the honemeisters actually do, but do honemeisters pass the HHT (or any other non-shave test, for that matter) and send back the razor straight away, or do they test shave first? If they test shave, why?

James.

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Or, think of what barbers used to do. They wouldn't test shave themselves before shaving each customer would they? How could that barber be sure each customer got a satisfactory shave? After all, his reputation and business probably depended on the quality and consistency of his shaves. All a barber could rely on was the HHT or thumb pad test after stropping. It wouldn't have been a good business practice to do "test shaves" on customers, although it's quite possible that some did...:hmmm: ?

Scott

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

An overhoned edge passes an HHT pretty well.

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Would you define "passes" an HHT?

Does just any cutting of the hair = a pass? Or are there other criteria required for a pass?

Is it possible for a razor to cut the hair, but not pass the HHT?

I imagine that there would be some difference between an overhoned edge and a correctly honed edge. Although, if using the thumb nail test correctly, an overhoned edge would never make it to the stropping stage, would it?


Scott

I don't know, I left the book in my other car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Or, think of what barbers used to do. They wouldn't test shave themselves before shaving each customer would they? How could that barber be sure each customer got a satisfactory shave? After all, his reputation and business probably depended on the quality and consistency of his shaves. All a barber could rely on was the HHT or thumb pad test after stropping. It wouldn't have been a good business practice to do "test shaves" on customers, although it's quite possible that some did...:hmmm: ?

Scott

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Yes, that's a good point - I guess the old barbers *could* only do non-shave tests. But I wonder if the first couple of customers post-hone might not have been test
cases - I bet the feedback would have been pretty instantaneous on a poor blade!

Anyway, I've got no doubt that a well honed, shave-ready razor will pass the HHT. I'm just not sure the converse is always true. But it's like you guys say, if it works for you that's great.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

But I wonder if the first couple of customers post-hone might not have been test cases - I bet the feedback would have been pretty instantaneous on a poor blade!
James.

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I suppose there are some professional services where something like that might fly, but probably not barber shaves! Not if said barber wanted to stay in business for long.

Of course you hear horror stories about terrible shaves at the barber, but I'm guessing that those are the exceptions.


Scott

I'd just like to say at this point that I'm punching over my weight here, I know. I've only been honing for about a year, and only my own razors. So my points are a mixture of academic speculation and limited experience.

But my feeling is that Sott's question about whether a hair can be cut on the HHT and the HHT still fail is probably key. Personally, I don't feel I have the experience to know the difference, but I wish I did. That's why I use the HHT as a relative measure, not absolute.

James.

There is a giant difference between a barber conducting an update honing in his shop and honing a razor from scratch.

Scott, your full of questions tonight. What gives? You already know the answers.

Like you say, you've been doing this only a year and under no pressure.

I imagine that an apprentice barber (sticking with the barber theme) learned to sucessfully put his test results and outcomes together rather quickly if he wished to remain in the barbering profession for long.

I'm suggesting that we can do the same, although it may take longer to do so. There is nothing quite like "on the job traing" to speed things up though.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Scott, your full of questions tonight. What gives? You already know the answers.

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Alan, I'm feeling very Socratic this evening. :thinking:


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Like you say, you've been doing this only a year and under no pressure.

I imagine that an apprentice barber (sticking with the barber theme) learned to sucessfully put his test results and outcomes together rather quickly if he wished to remain in the barbering profession for long.

I'm suggesting that we can do the same, although it may take longer to do so. There is nothing quite like "on the job traing" to speed things up though.


Scott

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You're right, of course. Finding the correlation between how the HHT passes and how the razor shaves would be particularly useful. And most likely person - specific and require a lot of data. Hmmmm.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Alan, I'm feeling very Socratic this evening. :thinking:



Scott

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I'm glad you were - the "cut on the HHT yet not pass the test" was a "if a tree falls in the forest..." moment for me. Kind of like: define "pass". Cheers!

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Alan, I'm feeling very Socratic this evening. :thinking:

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In that spirit, I'm going to come out and support what's been said here yesterday.

I've been having a :cen of a time with the HHT recently. I rob my wife's hair brush and I can never tell how oily or clean any given hair is. Oily hairs respond far less than freshly cleaned ones and the grey ones (don't rell her I told you) are like somebody else's hair altogether.

X