Naniwa or King?

I have tried over the last three razors naniwa progressions, ,4,8,10k with a 1k-6/k king in bewtween I'm finding at the 6k level I've a good bevel. No matter how light the stroke on the 8K naniwa & the 10K naniwa I have to reach back into the bucket and get the 6k to get a hair cutter. I must be doing something wrong no doubt. But why does this king combo almost on it's own defeat all the rest? How can my 6k honing be so smooth and then at the 8k go dull? I can't find a logical reason for why I cant get a decent result from the naniwa. I'm considering swapping completely to the clay based kings, so smooth and precise. Yet no one talks of them. I'll go to the classifieds and flog the 8 & 10K if someone can not come up with a valid reason. Here in Newcastle/Sydney, an 8k 10K King are bloody expensive, but I don't give a stuff if they work.

Issues, 1. My poor technique 2. Maybe the Kings are a good stone?

Attack gents....Rob:beer1:

I would verify that all the stones are lapped. If any of them are off, then it will affect the honing. Checking all of them is necessary.

Mate, I lap the 1k/6k combo stones the same way as the naniwas. Lapping is not the problem. I am really feeling clay based stones have some advantage over the resin based stones, then I see gssxigun & lynn go well.......The problem is me?

That's the only thing I can think of. Why an 8 k would dull a blade is beyond me. If there is something about the different stones not being compatible then its news to me.

Are you talking test fail or shave test fail ? The shave test is the only one that counts :<0) I have just gone from a King to a Norton 1k. Just for size reasons. I have heard mention of the Nani's failing pre shave tests but still doing the job. I rely mostly on thumb pad but I have been know to cut a hanger once in awhile. Sometimes I just trust my skill over the tests and take it all the way to shave to find out.

I use the King 1200 as a bevel setter! That's what the low grit is for 'setting the bevel'!

You wrote: " I'm finding at the 6k level I've a good bevel". The bevel is set long before you get to the 6K!

Glen as said and I fully agree that for some mystical reason the Naniwa stones don't always give good 'test' results but the final test, the Ultimate test is the Shave Test!

Give it a go with how the shave goes and then see how you did.

As far as using the Kings for everything, with time I think that you will find that the Naniwa stones will give you a really nice edge/shave! :tu

As with 99.9% of Everything about this age old art, It's Personal Preference! :bow:

10pups, the 1st time I did no tests, I got a top shave. When I went to the 'rule book' It was ordinary. You are the 1st one to say 'let the shave itself decide'. Makes good sense.

I might be the first to repeat it here :<0) At the end of it all I may have to go back once in awhile but the one thing I learned by doing it that way was how much to go back. Set the bevel right and the rest is finish and polish.

Moved to "honing" forum for more potential input.

My 2ç is look at any HHT thread & you'll see many repetitions of "the shave test is the best test"

If you're relying on HHT or some other test to base your assumptions you're shooting yourself in the foot.

If you have a calibrated HHT, do it after you've stropped not before.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

My 2ç is look at any HHT thread & you'll see many repetitions of "the shave test is the best test"

If you're relying on HHT or some other test to base your assumptions you're shooting yourself in the foot.

If you have a calibrated HHT, do it after you've stropped not before.

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Thank you mate!:tu

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

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If you have a calibrated HHT, do it after you've stropped not before.

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:tu

My usual progression is king1k if I need to set the bevel, then king6k and final polish on naniwa8k. It works great, with some variations:
-When I want to push the edge I add few strokes on escher or cuticle.
-With some steels suehiro6k works faster than king6k
During the progression I rely on loupe and TPT, my final test is a calibrated HHT and when it is OK the shave is great.

Your stone sequence is effective, is it your technique? Is it that you don't get a perfectly set bevel?

I've used all those stones you are talking about with the same or similar progression and what I don't understand is how you are losing your edge after going on to the Naniwa 8K? because the 8K is a seriously good stone and I find this baffling.

Here is a crazy idea... Ive learned this with knife sharpening... If you polish the edge on a knife it will fail the paper cutting test... Simple! It is super sharp but the bevel is too smooth to cut the paper... Because it needs some of them micro serrations to grab and cut... I think that might be the problem you are encountering

Personal preference...true. Sometimes when I have toiled on a razor, and put it aside, then 2 days later had a shave with it and it shaves fine. I think, I just trust the TPT, when it feels sharp it most likely is. Now I have a 7 razor circulation, so each recovers a few days, and you get a look at it under magnification, can't fault it. I think I did a few things wrong, too much pressure, and rejecting anything that doesn't pass the myriad of tests. Trust your feel is my new motto. Forget the HHT, although I dislike dulling a blade to prove it was sharp TNT, is a fairly accurate indicator. If it doesn't grab your nail, then you do need to continue. If it does grab, you need to repair the damage you just did. We are a nutty bunch.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Personal preference...true. Sometimes when I have toiled on a razor, and put it aside, then 2 days later had a shave with it and it shaves fine. I think, I just trust the TPT, when it feels sharp it most likely is. Now I have a 7 razor circulation, so each recovers a few days, and you get a look at it under magnification, can't fault it. I think I did a few things wrong, too much pressure, and rejecting anything that doesn't pass the myriad of tests. Trust your feel is my new motto. Forget the HHT, although I dislike dulling a blade to prove it was sharp TNT, is a fairly accurate indicator. If it doesn't grab your nail, then you do need to continue. If it does grab, you need to repair the damage you just did. We are a nutty bunch.

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Lmao! Indeed we are...
This post caught my eye because i hone with 1k, king and 6k king and 12 Chinese... I have been wanting to upgrade so i was thinking on naniwas! Then i thought... Just getting 3k, 8k, 12k nanis and use the kings in between! Still havent decided what to do! I might just get all nanis

Robert, I've not got the experience to give a top answer, however, I've enjoyed the 1k/6k king, and I find the 8K 10K naniwas a hard stone. I must have been using too much pressure, but many others have a great opinion of the nani's. I'm starting to try a little slurry on the 8k for super light strokes. I did read on another site that the highest grit stone, try 10 e/W spine leading. It hasn't been tested yet, but if you tend to over hone, a few spine leading strokes couldn't hurt? Good luck mate. Don't make the mistake I made of way too much pressure, dulling a 4 k bevel, into a butterknife, just through pressure. I've learned

Thanks for the advise

bobski I think you hit on the problem... Pressure. Too much with less than perfect technique can kill the edge Rey quickly. As others have said don't leve th 1K until the bevel is set. Pressure is okay here unti it's just about done then start backing off the pressure. All the other grits are just refinements

I work all my ladies through and finish on the 12K because it's so smooth. The stones are 80% on the finish the balance is stropping. Get lazy here and you'll be asking a trip back to the stones around the 8K level then work back up.

Nortons or Nani's both are quality. I prefer not soaking he stones so the Nani's get the nod for me. Just work with light pressure the lighter the sharper your blade is going to be.

Thanks for that, I'll keep on listening, but I thought learning to shave was the hard part. You feel great when you negotiated your ear lobe for the 1st time. But honing...if you stuff that up you cut that ear lobe off! As to the Nanis, I just have to be patient, listen, and do my best. The best descriptive comment is like spending a week in the gym, doing some laps, and finding you've put on 4 pounds...not lost any! Not fair eh?

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Originally Posted by bobski

Thanks for that, I'll keep on listening, but I thought learning to shave was the hard part. You feel great when you negotiated your ear lobe for the 1st time. But honing...if you stuff that up you cut that ear lobe off! As to the Nanis, I just have to be patient, listen, and do my best. The best descriptive comment is like spending a week in the gym, doing some laps, and finding you've put on 4 pounds...not lost any! Not fair eh?

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It seems that you have been learning that there's a very good reason why I try to discourage those who are new or fairly new about trying to learn to hone right off the bat!

There is more than enough to learn how to 'Properly' Strop, Make Lather and YES!!! Shave!!!!!

As you are finding out, there is more to honing than watching a video! That's why I ALWAYS Recommend trying to find local help for hands on learning!

I waited over a year to even begin to consider honing, I had purchased some shave ready razors from the Classifieds here at SRP and I'd sent my razors out to the pros for honing and Boy am I glad I did!

While it cost me a bit for purchases, honing charges and shipping, when I finally took the plunge I was able to compare how my edges felt against a pro's edge!

About a year ago I sent a razor out for custom scales for my son's friodur and asked that the razor be finished on a Naniwa 12K and NO Pastes so that I could see how I was doing as I don't use any pastes. I was holding my own!

Be patient, take your time and as has been mentioned back off on the pressure, make sure that the bevel is set/make sure the bevel is set/ make sure the bevel is set!

This is the same advice that Glen gives only worded differently, I believe he writes:

Bevel! Bevel! Bevel!

You'll get there! Honing comes eaisier for some than others!

Enjoy the ride! It's a long strange trip, but well worth the journey! :tu

I use a King, 1000/6000 and a 12000 for finishing, I have found that the King stone doesn't last long on the 1000 side as I lap about every 3rd or 4th hone. Every time I lap I loose a lot of stone, I only had this stone about a month and have about 1/2 in left. I am thinking about getting a Norton next stone as maybe it will last a little longer. I made the mistake of getting the smaller stone and wish I got the wider stone, 3 inch. I can relate to loosing a edge when I set my bevel and then go to the 12k Chinese stone and wondered why myself. Maybe we are polishing the edge to much. It would be interesting to know for sure what is happening.

While I don't use a King Combo, I've used the King 1200 for years now! I lap it Every Time before I set a bevel! It doesn't take but about 8 figure 8's to raise a slurry! It hardly shows any wear at All!

If you are wearing that stone down that fast and only lapping every now and then, perhaps you could try using less pressure when you lap and less laps. :shrug:

I use a pencil to mark when I am flat like Lynn does and I leave my Chinese 12k and king both in water. Since the king is clay based should I not leave it in water? Leaving it in water may be making it to soft so when I lap it wares down fast. When I lap my 12k it seems to take forever to lap.

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Originally Posted by bookdoctor

I use a pencil to mark when I am flat like Lynn does and I leave my Chinese 12k and king both in water. Since the king is clay based should I not leave it in water? Leaving it in water may be making it to soft so when I lap it wares down fast. When I lap my 12k it seems to take forever to lap.

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You only need to 'Flatten' the King ONCE!! After that, it's just making sure that the surface is 'FRESH'/Only a few circles 8's!! The King can be stored in water! Use about a capful of non scented liquid clorine bleach per gallon of water. Change the mixture every 6 months.

Glen personally told me that he keeps his King 1K stored this way and he's been doing so for years! I followed suit and it works great!

I think most of us have stones we prefer. The 1/6K King gets me to the polishing stones, and I like the result the 6k gives. (It's a clay based stone), whereas the nanis are resin based. Now I have discovered that I'm using way to much pressure on the 8k, 10k naniwas, I'm getting better results. More so though by just shave testing rather than the myriad of tests of sharpness out there. So I have a routine, depending on the blade, going from the 1k (If needed) to a 4k samurai deluxe naniwa, the 6k king, and seriously delicate use of a dozen or so strokes of each of the 8k & 10K nanis. I am putting the sharpness tests aside, apart from the tpt, if it feels good, it generally is. As to wearing out your 1k, I reckon it would take me a lot longer,, but mate I'm a newbie, in any event, keep at it. It's a top hobby/interest that gives a tangible result. You are on the other side of the world, and we both are at odds at times with honing bloody razors! Cheers Rob and my best advice is lessen the pressure, works amazing, because soon as you do a half dozen firm strokes, the blade dulls....true

Thank you both for the advise and I will try some 8's next time and see how it works, also I will ease up on pressure and see if I can hold a edge. This is what this form is all about, learning from people who have been there and done that. Great advise