Pressure and Grit: walk me through it

I'm at that level of information saturation that I need to dial back to basics. Hopefully, this will be of use to other recent entrants. Basic questions:

1. assuming your edge is not chipped or nicked, but that you do need to set a bevel, what is the right grit to start at? Do you use "firm", "medium", or "light" pressure at this stage?
2. Do you 'x-stroke' at this stage? other motion?
3. At what grit or at what stage do you begin to transition to very light pressure?
4. Through these stages, are you keeping the razor'flat' on the stone, applying pressure by pushing straight down? Or are you as any phase using a rotation type of pressure to force the edge to the stone while keeping the back in engaged?

:(

There isn't a "Basic" answer

Although everyone will describe what they just did there really isn't an answer

1. assuming your edge is not chipped or nicked, but that you do need to set a bevel, what is the right grit to start at? Do you use "firm", "medium", or "light" pressure at this stage? (All three usually from heavy to light but the razor decides what it needs not the honer, reading the edge is much more important than a ham handed attempt of beating it into submissiion)


2. Do you 'x-stroke' at this stage? other motion? (Partly, Circles, X's, Swoops, and even some Glen's :p again what is the edge asking you to do)

3. At what grit or at what stage do you begin to transition to very light pressure? (After the bevel is set)

4. Through these stages, are you keeping the razor'flat' on the stone, applying pressure by pushing straight down? Or are you as any phase using a rotation type of pressure to force the edge to the stone while keeping the back in engaged? (Applying Torque toward the edge, is the optimum way of honing but it takes a bit of practice to get it right)


I answered you questions to the best I could but honestly, the more you practice the more clear it all becomes..

And, until you get to where you can read an edge and pretty much can tell what it may need.....The magic marker test is your friend. A few light strokes with the edge marked can tell you a lot and save some grief by going overboard with pressure or even too coarse of a stone.

:gl:

+1

Everyone has to develop their own "feel" over time and with practice - I couldn't tell you how much pressure I use because I've developed a feel for how much it takes and how much is too much. I generally lighten up around 4-8K and then use very light pressure on 16-30K. I also tend to envision "leaning" forward slightly on the edge so it may or may not be getting a bit more pressure than the spine. I used to use a microscope a lot to look at my edges to guide me and give me insight into any problems - chipping etc. Now i just use a hand loupe to check the bevel and go from there and *most* times I can nail it. Keep practicing and you will develop your own technique and feel - that's what matters.

-john

For bevel setting I start at a 1K grit stone. My stone of choice is the Chosera 1K. On that stone I use circle strokes with pressure. After that stone if I use Coticules, I use light pressure until I get up to the finishing stage. If I continue with synthetics after the bevel setting stone, I don't use any pressure.

Glen: focusing on honing motions, are you essentially tyring to identify the motion that keeps the blade in contact with the stone?

Are these blades so flexy that slight differences in hand pressure (force/location) change the shape during honing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

Glen: focusing on honing motions, are you essentially tyring to identify the motion that keeps the blade in contact with the stone?

Are these blades so flexy that slight differences in hand pressure (force/location) change the shape during honing?

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1. Yes exactly, this is where the Magic Marker test really really helps when you are new to this, later you can just read the Striations from each hone... The "Honing Gymnastics" need to keep the edge and the spine in contact all in one even motion...

2. Yes some of them are. if you press hard enough to flex that blade you will be honing behind the edge and weaken the bevel resulting in a weak, harsh, edge...
Use just enough pressure to not flex the edge, again the MM test can help when first starting out...

Caveat: On the older heavy Sheffielders excess pressure will not flex the edge, but it can create a soft Burr/Fin basically the same issue but it presents differently...


Edit: I am of course talking about the bevel setting stage, once the bevel is set you are simply polishing and finishing using very little pressure as you hone...

We must be cautious when telling anyone else that we "do whatever the razor asks us to do", just say'n. It sounds a little disturbing. At least I'm lucky that only my razors and motorcycles ever speak to me.

jg: Where are you located. Some one nearby that you can visit will be of tremendous help.

I think pressure should be variable between stone types also.

In the extreme the DMT1200 is vastly different to the King 1200. Pressure on the DMT wil give you a 1200 grit wide scratch but a much bigger depth than the King. I believe the Shapton Pro is another that does not play nice with pressure due to its composition & speed but there would also be stones that are fast that can be pushed on a little. Possibly the Chosera 1k falls into that category . I believe it's a fast stone but it's speed comes from quantity of abrasive rather than the particles shape or other characteristic.
Someone that uses one could confirm or deny that ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cosperryan

jg: Where are you located. Some one nearby that you can visit will be of tremendous help.

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I'm in Houston and looking forward to the March meeting.

I'm thinking I'll have to pick up the chosera. Many, many years ago I had a Shapton 1k. I got rid of it as it was too slow and dished to quickly. I found it faster to go from the dmt green to the Shapton 5k. Maybe the chosera is the 1k waterstone I've been seeking.

As said, do what the razor needs. The term bevel stetting is use by us to mean make the bevels flat and even so they meet in a straight edge. The edge is sharp. It is the base point from which you build an edge.

But if your razor has already been honed and the bevels are flat and even and meeting but not completely, lacking sharpness, a regression all the way to 1K may not be needed and in fact may result in a poorer edge. If the bevels are in good condition going to an 8 or 4k and slowly coxing the bevels to meet at the higher grit with much smaller stria, the edge will be much straighter (finer stria) and stronger less likely to microchip, especially with a novice honer who will most likely use too much pressure and spend too much time on the low grit hone.

Before diving in with a low grit stone, ink the bevels and do 2-3 laps with a 12 or 8K stone, look at the edge straight down with magnification and strong light. Look for any light reflecting back at you from the edge (where bevels are not meeting) and if ink is removed from the bevels all the way to the edge. Then decide the course of action depending on the results.

Bevel setting an eBay special and a razor that is need of refreshing are two different things.

While any diamond plate or low grit stone will remove metal quickly you may pay for that speed in the end. Aggressive diamonds and or pressure will make a frail edge as can any 1k and pressure. This is what Onimaru is talking about and I believe often over looked, the source of much frustration and countless honing threads by novice honers.

Even with a quality 1K 10 + light polishing laps after the bevel is set, to begin the polishing of the bevel and edge reducing stria land height may save you many laps further down the road.

Here is a visual demonstration of Pressure and its effects, same abrasive media, same subject, different amounts of pressure. If this was a razor, which would produce a finer, stronger edge?

Attachment 157671
Attachment 157670

That is an excellent demonstration. These photos somehow need to go into a Wiki, or a Sticky, or something that makes it available for all honers, beginners or not, to see.

Yes, very visual, it is from an old honing post here, I forget who posted it.

The more I think about refresh honing, the more I think we too often, too quickly turn to a full 1k bevel set.

I also notice many fine old, very old razors especially European, with very little if any spine hone wear.

Which lead me to believe, natural medium/high grit one stone honing with slurry, e.g. Coticule, Slates, and Jnats were used to slowly build and maintain and edge. That and stropping… maybe there is something to learn from that.