Been Honing, now questions?

OK.
I have been honing using the pyramid and on a 4/8 norton. Bevel is set. Have been doing this almost daily for a week. No tape. And shaving after each hone.

My questions now are this:

When i am honing I am keeping more water on the hone so that i can watch the wave in front of the edge, is this ok?

Am getting a better, longer lasting edge, especially with stropping, but edge does not keep super keen through the shave, lasts about 3/4 of shave. Possible why?

I do know that this is not easy, and i am really paying attention to keeping the blade flat, with light consistant pressure. Is the same pressure maintained on both the 4 and the 8 sides? or will this be a "feel" thing when I get better?

After the hone, is there a standard for linen/leather strop number?

Thats all for now, thanks

I started honing early and when I did, I honed a razor or two every day, sometimes multiple times a day, for about 4-5 months. It paid off just like your honing frequency will pay off if you keep it up. I've used a lot of water before, but most of the time, it's just enough to see the blade contact I'm getting, which really isn't that much. Bottom line, I don't think it matters until you get a stone dry. Once the bevel is set, I don't apply anything else but the weight of the blade pressure, which to me is laying the blade flat on the stone, balancing it by pulling up with my ring and pinkie finger and using my thumb and forefinger to control it with just enough pressure that the blade doesn't wobble or skip, which is the most minute amount, but not much. As for the loosing the edge 3/4 of the way through the shave. I've had that trouble before when I honed my Hart up really sharp. I started adding a layer of tape at a time and rehoning until I didn't have that issue (ended up with two). That was when I was first starting to shave and hone as well, so it could have been the pressure I was shaving with as well. I use linen then leather because I've found that the linen seems to bring back the sharpness a little faster for me and my razors stay sharper longer...just me. I've used leather exclusively for weeks and noticed I needed about 20 more laps to be the same.

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..but edge does not keep super keen through the shave, lasts about 3/4 of shave. Possible why?

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The most common reason seems to be that the bevel is not actually set. We get it close but not quite "there". It's usually just a matter of moving off the bevel setter to the next grit level a little too soon. In fact (and in my opinion), the reason that the pyramid method works for some is that it forces a little more work on the coarser stones. We spend so much time talking about finishers here that it's easy for the newcomer to want to get off the bevel too soon and get to what seems to be "the good part", when it's actually the other way around. Most of the sharpness comes from the bevel. So.. we end up polishing an edge that is just barely good enough and find that it quickly deteriorates to not quite good enough.

Of course, using too steep an angle - which usually leads to too much pressure - is also hard on an edge. To compound matters, there are many variables involved in beard prep, the soap used, stropping techniques, etc which can contribute to premature edge degradation.

I'd revisit the bevel first, maybe forgetting about counting strokes and just stick with it until it's done, then give stropping and angle a good look. The good news is that it gets easier and usually just all comes together at once.

rs,
Tack

Having a set bevel is a feel. A learned feel. Nothing visual. You visually have a bevel but to actually be set takes practice to KNOW it is SET. Lots of practice.

I will reset the bevel and make sure it is set. I am not really in a hurry to go fast, just want to learn it right the first time.
I do linen first then leather.
Thanks for the input.

Another question that needs to be asked is what type of razor are you honing? There may be other reasons why your edge degrades 3/4 of the way through a shave.

One good way to test the bevel is by placing the blade lightly on your thumbnail. Let it rest there with the weight of the blade. Now try to move the blade side to side (not toe to heel). Try this on several different spots along the razor for the toe to the heel. If the razor is able to slip off as you put pressure to the side, the bevel is not set at that spot. It should instead 'stick' right in the spot you put it.

Also, run a line of sharpie along the cutting edge on both sides while honing if you're having trouble; this will give you a good visual where the blade is actually contacting the hone, and where your trouble spots are.

that side to side test is a new one on me and i think I'm going to try it. always pick up something new on this site.

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Originally Posted by gfro

that side to side test is a new one on me and i think I'm going to try it. always pick up something new on this site.

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I'd go quite gently with the lateral forces, you'll be flexing some very thin steel when it bites. I get the concept, but i can also just see a noob ripping a chunk out of his double extra super hollow ground finest edge. :gaah:

One of two things is happening, the bevel is not completely set or you are setting the bevel with your 1K with too much pressure and while you can get an edge it later crumbles.

Was your bevel set? After you are sure the bevel is set, try stropping on linen between the stone progression 20-30 laps.

Why no tape? Until you learn to hone you will spend way too much time on low grit hones and use way too much pressure needlessly grinding away your spine. Just saying… Once you have mastered honing, then decide if you want to continue using tape.

Take a break… Perfect Practice, makes Perfect. Not… making the same mistake repeatedly. Doing the same thing expecting a different result is insanity… and wasting good steel.

Find a mentor.

How do you know your bevel is set?

Your test must be definitive, you must know the bevel is set, the bevels are meeting at a straight edge. If not, you are wasting your time and steel polishing bevels with no edge. You may get lucky and the bevels come togeather on the higher grit stones. The problem is you then, try to duplicate your results using the same technique and will not get results because your bevel setting technique was... luck.

So, how do you know your bevel is set?

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Originally Posted by Tack

The most common reason seems to be that the bevel is not actually set.

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I'm not clear on the rationale for this. If the bevel is not set, what is the reason for the quality of the shave to change 3/4 of the way through? What's changing during the shave? If it's "dull" at the start, are you saying it is getting more dull?

I'm not arguing here, I just don't understand this concept.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm not clear on the rationale for this. If the bevel is not set, what is the reason for the quality of the shave to change 3/4 of the way through? What's changing during the shave? If it's "dull" at the start, are you saying it is getting more dull?

I'm not arguing here, I just don't understand this concept.

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Yes. :) No one questions the idea that shaving damages the edge, ie- that the razor becomes less and less sharp with each shave. I'm suggesting that if the OP has a borderline edge to start with, it won't take much to dull it enough partway through the shave that it becomes noticable. A bevel that is almost but not quite right could leave the edge in that borderline state. In truth, such an edge will not be acceptable to him in the first place after he corrects the problem. It is also possible to have a good edge off the stones and then knock it back to the borderline point with poor stropping I suppose.

rs,
Tack

visualize this as the edge



____________ _____ _ _ __________________


The breaks in the line are spots in the bevel that are not fully set, and as Tack said "Almost there"
As you go past that and hone at the higher stages they get closer and correct stropping brings it even closer but as soon as the edge is subjected to the wear of a shave, the weak areas fail and the shave gets grabby...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

visualize this as the edge



____________ _____ _ _ __________________


The breaks in the line are spots in the bevel that are not fully set, and as Tack said "Almost there"
As you go past that and hone at the higher stages they get closer and correct stropping brings it even closer but as soon as the edge is subjected to the wear of a shave, the weak areas fail and the shave gets grabby...

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I like this explanation it's things like this explained very simply that I can understand. I've had this problem but your suggestion of the marker pen, also simple has put me on the right path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

visualize this as the edge



____________ _____ _ _ __________________


The breaks in the line are spots in the bevel that are not fully set, and as Tack said "Almost there"
As you go past that and hone at the higher stages they get closer and correct stropping brings it even closer but as soon as the edge is subjected to the wear of a shave, the weak areas fail and the shave gets grabby...

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+1...Glen as usual is spot on! The flat spots that Glen describes are easy to see with the naked eye and a bright light source. Just hold the edge up to the light and rotate the blade edge back and forth very slightly and they will appear as bright spots or spaces on the edge. Even with the TPT they won't feel much different than the rest of the edge unless you have a really experienced 'touch'.

"Practice = Knowledge = Confidence = Success"

WP34

Good points. A jeweler's loupe is invaluable (if your getting older like me)

Watching the water along the bevel is exactly what you should be doing. That let's you know that your blade is making complete contact with the hone. Honing daily should not be needed, neither should a touch up. Once honed properly, you should get 1-3 months out of a blade (ymmv) depending on your beard, stropping and overall technique.

I would check/reset the bevel.

This is much like what I think happens with hair test. The tester, test the edge and it does not cut hair so they move the hair to a different spot and it cuts. They then tell themselves, ok the bevel is set and continue on. Sometimes they actually do set the bevel by honing on the higher grit stones, sometimes not or just part of the razor. Which is the problem with hair test, it only tells you about the hair width section that did or did not cut hair.

So they shave with the razor but the whole razor edge is not sharp, but it will still shave with the part that is. The user then trys to shave with the part that is not sharp and says, what happened the edge is no longer sharp?

Really it never was… the bevel was never set... completely

ok. going to start over with an AIG razor that has seen very little use. use tape, keep the marker test going and see what i can accomplish. i will get this learned, no matter how long it takes. i am persistant. also rewatch a cpl vids to ensure technique is correct. thanks for all the help.

The most important thing is to completely set the bevel, after you are absolutely sure the bevel is set, do 10 light laps to begin the polishing of the bevel, then hone until you remove the stria from the previous stone as you progress with finer stones. You should finish with at least an 8K stone. You can bevel set with the 4k but a 1k will make your life easier.

Strop on linen and leather or Chrome Oxide if you have it.

Here is how to check if the bevel is set. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc