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Hey guys, I was just wondering what are your thoughts on Dennis Moor's white 8000 grit ceramic stones? I've heard of some people using the spyderco ultrafine bench hone, but since the grit's not listed for that, I'd rather stay away than hone with it and end up with a dull, chipped razor. Does anyone here actually use Moor hones? It seems they'd wear slower than water stones, and be a lot like barber hones in that respect.
The grit's not listed for the old ceramic barber hones either, so I'm not sure that that's much of a negative. The concensus guess for the spyderco ultrafine is that it's in the neighborhood of 12k grit.
Hmm, interesting... any consensious on what the Spyderco Fine ceramic is? I wonder is that could be a Norton 8K equivalent....
I think that the fine is nore like 1200.
Rick
Joe L. and Robert still get good results out of it though.
Edit: I was referring to the Ultra Fine. Fine could be in the 1k range for all I know.
I went rummaging back through the archives on this, and like the ceramic barber hones nobody really knows what the grit in the ultrafine ceramic spyderco really is. But Joe Lerch thought his gave an edge similar to a 10-12k grit (japanese scale) hone. But that was after lapping, and I've found that the ceramic hones act a lot finer depending on how they're lapped. One of the finest finishing hones I've ever had was an unassuming brown barber hone called "The King" - after I lapped it on 600 grit wet/dry it had this shiny polished sheen to it and would put on a better edge than my 15k Shapton. At least it did until I dropped it :-(
I bought one of these when I was at the Spyderco clearance store in Golden, Colorado (also home of Coors). They're hard! They're really great for Spyderco's really hard (and somewhat brittle) steel. I own at least ten Spyderco models and their stone is a good match for their steel. I wouldn't use it on my straight razor due to it's unforgiving nature.
Interesting, I used to work in a tool store that sold the DMT diamond and Spyderco Ceramic (hence, I have a couple for my wood working tools- wish I bought the extra fine:mad:). According to Spyderco their ceramics never need to be lapped and will never wear.
I wonder if they mean for the average person or if they consider some of our honemeisters.....
Found this thread on the Spyderco forums about Ceramc grits.
There;s differeing opinions on the grits.
I have used the Spyderco hones on Str8's and found that they are not as good as the Norton 4/8. The ceramic is difficult to keep clean and when new a person needs to "break in" the hone. It has high points that will chip the edge of the razor. You must also pay attention to the edges for the same reason.
IMHO both the diamond hones and the Spyderco hones are not suitable for razors.
Something tells me this debate's never going to end or be completely resolved";"!
I just got an Ultra Fine for Christmas . Flattened one side just a little, all it needed. Took my new Red Imp That I had just honed on my Coti & did 20 rounds on my Ultra fine, stropped it on my Koken Cordavan Shell strop I haven't ever had a nicer edge on a razor. Shaved like butter. It kept the smooth edge of the Coti but just sharpened it a couple of notches!
Dave "Slawman" Huffman
:gaah:
:banghead:
If you are talking about a Spyderco UF, then you just trashed that side of the hone--relatively speaking. The only difference between the F and UF hones is the surface ground by the company. The hone starts out sufficiently, if not perfectly, flat; and given how hard it is it will remain that way virtually indefinitely so it should not ever be lapped.
Now, on the bright side, your hone has two sides. You have one lapped and one original surface so play with them both!
I wouldn't say that at all, personally. My UF wasn't all that flat and I lapped it with no ill results. As with any very hard stone, surface condition/roughness plays a large role in both cutting speed and resultant finish. The smoother the surface of the stone is lapped, the slower and more finely it will cut.
But it is not a stone. It is a ceramic hone and its ability to cut comes from the ground surface. If someone wants a smoother surface they'd be better off using a piece of glass
If someone gets one that is not flat, they can exchange it for one that is, as the company guarantees them to be flat.
Terminology aside, it is used to hone - therefore it can be called a hone, a (synthetic) stone or whatever one might choose to call it. The ability to cut comes from the hardness of the material. Glass (silicon dioxide) rates about a 5.5 - 6 on the Moh's scale - the aluminum oxide that the Spyderco UF is made of rates at about a 9.X IIRC. The surface texture only changes the speed of cut and the finish imparted to the workpiece - be that a knife or razor or even a fish hook.
Regarding the flatness, I personally won't often bother sending something back I can fix myself - and with better effect. I'd prefer to KNOW it's flat first time out without waiting a week for a new one, as well as being able to tailor the cut to my preference. You can surface a stone and make it cut faster, or you can surface it so that it cuts slower - neither of which ruins a stone, in my opinion. YMMV, of course.
Perhaps this will help clear things up a bit.
The Spyderco and similar ceramic hones are a single solid piece of ceramic material. Other hones such as the Shapton, Naniwa etc. are also called ceramic hones, but they are made by pulverizing a solid piece of ceramic into tiny (and sharp) shards or pieces. These pieces are then graded and mixed with a much softer binder and molded back into hone shaped blocks. This is also why they can assign a grit to their hones, the shards, pieces, grains or grit (chose your term) are graded by size.
Ceramics and glass are made from very fine minerals that are fired until they become a homogeneous mix and then are allowed to cool until solid. The Spyderco type hones, being a single solid piece of extruded ceramic material, is then cut and surfaced into a cutting tool. The pattern on the face of such a hone is like a file, only much finer of course, and that's what gives it the cutting action.
The coarser gray or brown Spyderco does have more of a grain to it... the minerals used to create it are much less fine and so they begin to have an impact on the cutting of steel.
Surfacing solid ceramic hones like the UF Spyderco removes the purposeful pattern ground into the hone, but depending on what kind of diamond plate or method you used, it might still be useful. Surfacing a Shapton/Naniwa type hone dislodges the surface grit and binder to reveal new layer of sharp shards of ceramic in it's binder.
As for the less than perfect flatness of a Spyderco... remember these are made for honing pocket knives... not straight razors, and so there is no concern given to their use for honing razors by the manufacturer.
I do have some solid ceramic hones I use for wood carving knives, but I don't really find them useful for razors.
Regards
Christian
Yes; again, the stone-shaped object in question can be surfaced in manners that allow it to cut in many ways. Be they fast or slow, fine or coarse. Diamond plate lapping is not a good method to get much cutting action on this hone - the surface needs a little texture to get a bite - just like most any other abrasive. SiC loose grit is preferable - and it needs to be refreshed often or it will tend to do too much smoothing as well.
As I said I lightly flattened one side of my U.F. As it had a hump in the middle. Hardly touched it with a 600 grit diamond hone. This morning I got out a Morley Clover brand 6/8" Barbers notch razor that I had a hard time getting a good edge on. I had set a good bevel with my 1000 king then did 50 rounds on the 6000 side. Went to my Coti. for 50 rounds then did100 rounds on my brand new U.F. Spyderco. Edge looked great so I did 30 rounds on my paddle strop with CROX then 30 rounds on the naked side of the paddle leather. One of the best shaves I have ever had PERIOD! My U.F. Took the edge to a new level. I may be all wrong but it seems that what I did to the hone did little to know damage to it.
So far I am a happy camper with my U.F. Spyderco & plan to use & grow with this great hone. Merry Christmas & a Happy & safe New Year!
Slawman
I sincerely doubt you are wrong, using a diamond grit hone to flatten it will put new grooves in the surface and as it worked for you, then great!
The problem with this is that it is unpredictable, it depends on the diamond plate used, for example how much have the diamonds been worn before being used on the ceramic hone. A well worn DMT for example, might cut and flatten the ceramic, but the diamonds might burnish more than cut grooves, leaving the ceramic surface entirely different and perhaps ineffective. It is due to this unpredictability that we can't recommend doing this as the results will vary from user to user.
Regards
Christian
When it comes to new ceramic hones I'm of the same mind as Utopian and Kaptain Zero. Many people have ruined otherwise perfectly good barber hones and other types of ceramics by trying to lap them like naturals or other synthetics. It's a bit of a gamble - if you cut away too much ceramic and don't knock the cutting material down level with the ceramic surface it will be too coarse. Burnish the hone and it won't cut as fast. Can it be done? Yes. Should it be? A tentative maybe. Very much depends on the circumstances. I would try it out first, then based on it's performance decide whether or not I was willing to risk lapping it.
On a conciliatory note...
:angel:
The Spyderco hone DOES have two sides...
I had a spyderco set for ages. Actually it was one of my first quality hones. And I'll tell you. They work for straight razors.
The feedback is terrible and I never liked a straight honed on the spyderco progression. But when the uf is used as a finisher after a natural it's something completely different. Some of my very best edges were from a 1K-coticule-spyderco uf progression.
My own completely non scientific theory is that the spyderco uf refines the coticule edge without erasing the edge introduced by the it.
And I lapped mine. It was one of many experiment I did on it. Initially it made it smoother than the other side. But when the unlapped side became smoother with use the difference became so small that I stopped caring about with side I used.