Nagura Progression going backwards?

Just wanted to pose a question for jnat users-
Has anyone noticed razors going backwards when using a seemingly finer nagura? By backwards I mean by whatever test you use (HHT, etc).
For me, I can start with botan, get nice HHT with mejiro, then after koma, it seems like my HHT is considerably worse. I haven't done enough testing yet to see if that means anything (like how it shaves). Just wanted to see if anyone else has noticed the same thing. Could my koma actually be taking me backwards? It actually feels courser on the stone. Does a nagura have to be "broken in"?

Shane

I don't think your koma should feel more coarse. Mine certainly does not.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "broken in"? You need to make sure that there aren't sharp edges or corners, etc. that might break loose small chips of Nagura. I round off edges and corners to prevent that. If your Koma still feels gritty after that precaution, I'd just skip it and work the Mejiro a little longer. It'll give basically the same result. My understanding is that the binder is the main difference between Mejiro and Koma and that effecting how quickly the Nagura breaks down..............Well, and now the big difference is the price....sheesh!! :D

Regards,

Howard :)

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "broken in"? You need to make sure that there aren't sharp edges or corners, etc. that might break loose small chips of Nagura. I round off edges and corners to prevent that. If your Koma still feels gritty after that precaution, I'd just skip it and work the Mejiro a little longer. It'll give basically the same result. My understanding is that the binder is the main difference between Mejiro and Koma and that effecting how quickly the Nagura breaks down..............Well, and now the big difference is the price....sheesh!! :D

Regards,

Howard :)

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Thanks Howard. I didn't know if there were a certain amount you needed to take off to get to a consistent layer, kind of like you're saying so you don't get small chips and what not.
But yes good advice. The mejiro was working well. Maybe I should stick with not fixing it if it isn't broke :)

Howard, that is an excellent point about potential chunks or chips off of the koma. It's a matter of the macro vs the micro. The koma may contain fine grained material but if chunks of this fine stuff break off, then it ain't so fine.

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Originally Posted by RoyalCake

Thanks Howard. I didn't know if there were a certain amount you needed to take off to get to a consistent layer, kind of like you're saying so you don't get small chips and what not.
But yes good advice. The mejiro was working well. Maybe I should stick with not fixing it if it isn't broke :)

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I think you are misinterpreting the advice. You don't need to take a full layer off. You just need to make sure there are no fragile corners. You can do this by rounding over the corners in the same manner as chamfering the edges of a hone.

I'll let the experts respond but my understanding is that Koma nagura is rather rare or in short supply and it may be that your Koma is not exactly what it was promised to be? In the end, it's a rock and the absolute quality of it will never be guaranteed. As far as I know, what you describe should not be the case. I personality have never passed a HHT off of a Mejiro. I will only get there off of a tomo or the base stone with plain water. But those are my rocks and their qualities.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I think you are misinterpreting the advice. You don't need to take a full layer off. You just need to make sure there are no fragile corners. You can do this by rounding over the corners in the same manner as chamfering the edges of a hone.

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Well to be sure I'll just make sure that surface is smooth also. Just like the "sides" are not as smooth as the surface you use to make slurry, at some point I assume even that surface was "rough".
I'll double check and give it another go.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I'll let the experts respond but my understanding is that Koma nagura is rather rare or in short supply and it may be that your Koma is not exactly what it was promised to be? In the end, it's a rock and the absolute quality of it will never be guaranteed. As far as I know, what you describe should not be the case. I personality have never passed a HHT off of a Mejiro. I will only get there off of a tomo or the base stone with plain water. But those are my rocks and their qualities.

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True. Anything is possible.
But I did get it from another respected member here and it's asano stamped.
I'll have to do some more testing. To make sure I really know how it's behaving.

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Originally Posted by RoyalCake

True. Anything is possible.
But I did get it from another respected member here and it's asano stamped.
I'll have to do some more testing. To make sure I really know how it's behaving.

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Again refer to the experts but perhaps try using a lighter slurry with it. That may be a potential edge destroying problem. Maybe Utopan will give you the advice you need or try PMing Stefan.

BTW, what more are you hoping for if you're passing. HHT off of the Mejiro? Seems to me you hav a great edge already. Mejiro can be your last step in the progression. It a good, fine stone capable of being the final polish if you choose.

I have played with naguras but have nowhere near the experience that Stefan has.

I did a google search for "Koma nagura feels course" and the second thing that popped up was a page on Komas as tomonagura.com.
In his writeup he says "Like other Mikawa Nagura, each Koma can have its own unique personality. Some seem to create slurry that starts off coarser, yet winds up finer at the end of the session". Obviously it's pretty general statement, but maybe it speaks to the fact that each stone is different, same with naguras.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions to talk with Stefan too - I'll have to hit him up.

If you can hone mejiro then tomo & get a good edge maybe your koma is a problem ?
You may be able to see if the scratch pattern looks coarser under magnification. On the other hand are you honing beyond a good edge ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

If you can hone mejiro then tomo & get a good edge maybe your koma is a problem ?
You may be able to see if the scratch pattern looks coarser under magnification. On the other hand are you honing beyond a good edge ?

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Why didn't I think about looking at the scratch pattern? Haha. Of course.
I've been fairly successful with the jnat but not a ton of razors across it, so yes I may be going beyond a good edge. I'm still learning this set.

I always hone with my big eyes handy. :)

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Originally Posted by RoyalCake

I did a google search for "Koma nagura feels course" and the second thing that popped up was a page on Komas as tomonagura.com.
In his writeup he says "Like other Mikawa Nagura, each Koma can have its own unique personality. Some seem to create slurry that starts off coarser, yet winds up finer at the end of the session". Obviously it's pretty general statement, but maybe it speaks to the fact that each stone is different, same with naguras.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions to talk with Stefan too - I'll have to hit him up.

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If in fact this is the issue with your stone, you'll need to hone longer on it to break it down to its finest level of grit and polish. As I hone with mine, I do many many sets of circles and xstrokes to break down the slurry. You may already be doing that. But perhaps this one needs more than your others? If not, maybe try a tomo after your Mejiro instead.

Koma has a different feel than the other naguras IMO. Its starts out grittier but breaks very fast. A few circles and the slurry has started changing color. As was said a rounded edge will serve you better than a sharper corner. Are your slurry sizes consistent? I typically go smaller slurries on Koma. Slurry density is also something to consider so try to be aware of how it looks even to go as far as looking at the slurry with a loupe before, during and after. Maybe a touch more of water may be all that is needed.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Koma has a different feel than the other naguras IMO. Its starts out grittier but breaks very fast. A few circles and the slurry has started changing color. As was said a rounded edge will serve you better than a sharper corner. Are your slurry sizes consistent? I typically go smaller slurries on Koma. Slurry density is also something to consider so try to be aware of how it looks even to go as far as looking at the slurry with a loupe before, during and after. Maybe a touch more of water may be all that is needed.

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Thanks Bill. I remember your advice on the small slurries, and I'll pay more attention now. I do notice the color change and consistency, so maybe it's behaving like it should. I just need to stop and inspect more to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

If you get bubbles in the slurry, any slurry look at them with a loupe, if the slurry particles are suspended in the bubbles then the particles are very fine.