Honing didn't go too well

Hi,

I've bought a coticule hone and a Dovo Bismarck 6/8 SR. Today I tried to hone my SR, but that didn't go well. Right now it feels as if it pulls the haires from my face instead of cutting them. I can still get a ok shave (not better but also not worse than normal), but the shave is less confortable then before.

I'm a starter with SR, but I read that they didn't come Shave Ready from the factory, so I thought it would be a good idea to hone my SR. And how hard can that be ;-), apparently harder than I initially thought.

So I was hoping that someone around Amsterdam, Utrecht or Alkmaar would want to help me one time, and show / watch me hone my SR. Is there somebody willing to help me with that?

Nothing quite like jumping in the deep end! I hope there is someone local to pull you out...:gaah:

Yeah well, I did lie a little bit when I said "how hard can it be". I didn't believe it was easy, and I already have a second (vintage, C.V. Heljestrand No 24) razor coming over to me. But ofcourse, I couldn't wait. Always learning the hard way. :).

You could search this site and YouTube for honing vids while u wait for some personal help :)

:) Don't worry, I'll definitely be doing that. And I did that before already. SWMBO thinks I'm watching it too much. But she is working evenings this week, so I have lots of time for watching (and trying).

The one thing we all learn that when honing, there will always be challenges. There is not one perfect set of hones that works with all razors and grinds. I use Naniwa Superstones and love them. I need a lower grit hone next, I need it for problem razors with like chips or when honing wedges. It can be done on a 1K but just takes way longer. This is just my opinions on honing, so good luck and you maybe be able to find someone you can skype with and they can help watch you and give you some good ideas and tips for success. Stay with it.

Hi Metsie,

For others, this is familiar. I post about my failures - which in this case is very close to the path you describe. The experienced guys said - learn w/ pro-qualities edges. Learn the shave, then learn to hone. Being unburdened by knowledge, skill or humility, I learned to hone while I learned to shave. It had the predictable result - didn't go very well. I bled alot. That's why I'm called pinklather. I got 'shaveable' (not shave ready) results in a fairly short time, but edges were very harsh. Shaves were a challenge - not a pleasure.

The first razor w/ a pro edge I tried was on the upper end of sharpness. It demanded proper technique - which my poor quality edges had prevented me from learning. I still bled, but if careful, got a fine shave.

The next pro edge I tried was on the upper end of smoothness. The earth moved. It changed everything. This is where I found shaving joy. Shaves were now a pleasure I couldn't get enough of.

Meanwhile, I'm still learning to hone. 'Getting better, but not good yet. Rather than bore you further w/ autobiography, the things learned were - the guys who first said 'pro-quality' edges, and 'learn the shave first' - were *very* right. It might be that you're one of the rare people that just have natural talent at honing & shaving and will do fine on your own. Most of us had/have a moderately long learning curve to get both the shaving and the honing to a comfortable level. A sharp edge that's quite smooth - will get you comfortable with the shave. Even better - if there are members in your area - go spend a few hours getting tutored. Alot of members are quite happy to help.

You'll find the str8 delivers on the promises, but like anything that requires hand skills, it takes some time to develop the skills. The time it takes to acquire those skills is greatly reduced if you can connect w/ an experienced user.

I think you'll find it comes faster than expected, and that the shaves become closer, more comfortable and rather exhilarating. I wish you all the best in your learning.

My advice would be to put the hone and razor down and step away. Don't try to learn to hone by using a fine razor. Get something that you can feel comfortable making a lot of errors on without worry. Your Bismark does not sound like that kind of razor.

where did you get the coticule? it probably still has the sawing marks on the stone, you might want to get rid of that, getting those sawmark of the honing surface might be hard or easy depending on the type of coticule, if you have a few pocket knives laying around it might be an idea to hone those to break in your coticule. another option is to get a flat surface and some sanding paper to get the job done.

when the sawmarks are already out, try to progerssively reduce the pressure you use to the point where all the pressure you use is just to keep the razor flat on the coticule while honing. but you should get something cheaper then a Dovo Bismarck to learn to hone :gl:

I'm in Eindhoven by the way ;)

Edit: forgot to mention that there is a benelux sub forum around here

Thanks you all for the great advices.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

It might be that you're one of the rare people that just have natural talent at honing & shaving and will do fine on your own.

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Definitely not, otherwise i would not be asking questions here :D

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

My advice would be to put the hone and razor down and step away. Don't try to learn to hone by using a fine razor. Get something that you can feel comfortable making a lot of errors on without worry. Your Bismark does not sound like that kind of razor.

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I think your right. There is an 8 euro razor on it's way to me, I will practice a lot on that (hoping it will ever get sharp).

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Originally Posted by Bram

where did you get the coticule? it probably still has the sawing marks on the stone, you might want to get rid of that

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I got it from ardennes-coticule. I'll have a look at the sawing marks thing.

I knew there was a benelux subforum. I just didn't think about it when I started the thread. :)

I hone razors my many first time straight users, and they have similar stories. I've shaved with the razors they say aren't shave ready. Not a shot at you, but it does take time to learn this properly. The best advice I can give you, it to get your razor honed by a pro, and rule that part out. That way you know whether or not it's your technique.

You should learn to shave/use the razor before you dive into honing. You have to crawl before you can walk.

Good luck to you....

I didn't think honing would be easy. And I think you're right zip. I'll not be honing my bismarck again until I've got a lot more experience in honing. And for now I'll be looking for somebody who can hone it.
Also, as Bram already mentioned, I found that my coticule wasn't flat. I found a great "Hone lapping" thread on SRP (http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ing-101-a.html). It should be flat now :)

So you have received good advice re finding a mentor and learning to shave with a pro honed razor.

When you do begin to hone you will need a bevel setting stone in the 1K range and some magnification, an experienced Coticule honer could bevel set a razor but first you must learn the Coticule.

The Coticule, while a great stone is probably the most difficult stone to learn. There is so much variety in the stone and then you add slurry, (thick –thin- how much?) the variables increase exponentially. Used as a finishing stone post bevel set is much easier, especially for a novice honer.

The other thing that will guarantee you honing success is learn how and when a bevel is “Completely Set”. There are many threads and video on this on this site for that. If you bevel is not set, everything after that is a waste of time. This is the cause of most novice honing failure and most probably yours.

Lastly tape your spine, once you have mastered honing you can decide if you wish to continue to tape, but at least you will still have a razor to hone.

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Originally Posted by Bram

where did you get the coticule? it probably still has the sawing marks on the stone, you might want to get rid of that, getting those sawmark of the honing surface might be hard or easy depending on the type of coticule, if you have a few pocket knives laying around it might be an idea to hone those to break in your coticule. another option is to get a flat surface and some sanding paper to get the job done.

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Just a few short remarks: you don't need to break in coticules. They work from the get go. Also superficial sawing marks really shouldn't be an issue and as far as I know coticules usually come flat from Ardennes-Coticule. I know I messed up when I didn't get results in the beginning and lapped my stone three times, convinced that it wasn't flat. It was, my honing stroke just sucked, bad.

I started pretty much like Metsie, I got three razors, one I tried to polish up (dum-dum-duuuuhm), one I tried to hone (dum-dum-duuuuuhm) and one I used to shave with (dum-du...I guess you get the point). So I started honing on a coticule when I started shaving. When you start out with ANYTHING, you're bound to suck at it, hard. It gets frustrating when these frustrating experiences pile up: while shaving, honing, stropping, lapping, lathering...it's one big mess.

But if you persevere, it'll be fine. One thing I learned - quite late - is that when honing and it's not working out: rinse off everything, dry the razor and put it away, grab a beer. Especially in the beginning. Also: the bevel is everything. A good bevel makes honing a whole lot easier.

And hey, look at it like this: you just started honing, and you got an edge that isn't dull and actually shaves. That's a good start.

One last word: unicot, unicot, unicot.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

And hey, look at it like this: you just started honing, and you got an edge that isn't dull and actually shaves. That's a good start.

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:) Sounds good, but I had a better edge before I started to honing, but at least it still shaves!
ohw well, I should have waited for another razor to start honing. But I had only one, and I hoped to get it slightly better. Better luck next time :D

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Lastly tape your BEVEL (SPINE), once you have mastered honing you can decide if you wish to continue to tape, but at least you will still have a razor to hone.

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He meant tape the spine, not the bevel.

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Originally Posted by JBPilot

He meant tape the spine, not the bevel.

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I figured that :). Learning to hone a taped bevel wouldn't help much I guess.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Just a few short remarks: you don't need to break in coticules. They work from the get go. Also superficial sawing marks really shouldn't be an issue and as far as I know coticules usually come flat from Ardennes-Coticule. I know I messed up when I didn't get results in the beginning and lapped my stone three times, convinced that it wasn't flat. It was, my honing stroke just sucked, bad.

One last word: unicot, unicot, unicot.

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I know they don't need to break in like a translucent arkensa, it's more like getting to know the hone, experience the difference when using some pressure and/or some slurry.

about the sawmarks I stand by it, the amount of pressure you use is devided by the surface of contact between the razor and the hone, the sawmarks reduce this contact area thus increasing the effective pressure while to get a fine edge you want verry litle pressure ;)

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Originally Posted by Bram

I know they don't need to break in like a translucent arkensa, it's more like getting to know the hone, experience the difference when using some pressure and/or some slurry.

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Ah, okay, like that. Still, sharpening knives is a different animal from sharpening razors, but I see where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Bram

about the sawmarks I stand by it, the amount of pressure you use is devided by the surface of contact between the razor and the hone, the sawmarks reduce this contact area thus increasing the effective pressure while to get a fine edge you want verry litle pressure ;)

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I think that if your overall surface is flat and clear, shallow grooves are not going to make that much of a difference, as (a) at any given time, contact between the razor and the hone is relatively minimal, so I think the effect it has on pressure is too small to make an effective difference on the final edge and mainly (b) honing on slurry fills out the grooves if they are shallow enough not to catch the edge. I think so because I have one with quite a few of such saw/sand marks, and it works just fine on both water and slurry - these reasons seem logical to me.

the absolute contact area is small, that's a given, if only a fraction of this area is actually in contact the force is devided over an even smaller area, and so, your pressure [Newton / meters squared] obviously increases. as for (b) I usually finish on water, not slurry. although this thin film of water might indeed be significant if the groves are small enough.

A totaly different explenaition might be that my honing skills increased during the time that the sawmarks faded :shrug:

Bram are you saying Ardennes Coticule sold you a stone with sawmarks in the working surface?

metsie, I started with an old razor and no stone. The previous owner had died and had been "shaving with a straight". Apparently i got the razor he wasn't using. It pulled. I put it down.

Later I bought Norton kit for my Japanese cutlery.

Then, at some point in time, I thought to put my razor on those rocks 1/4/8. WORKED!!! a little better, still not real good (i was learning to SR shave too). So i bought some more razors-old and cheap but in great condition. THOSE razors honed right up and I've been HOOKED ever since.

Also about then a retired barber gave me a Coticule. It took Glen's vids to teach me proper use of Coti. I'm a student of the GSSIXGUN school of honing.

AS YOU GET better at SHAVING, you'll learn much more about the edges you develop in honing. Each SHAVE teaches you better what is required to prep the beard and how to approach each section of your face. Each shave also educates your skin as to what is sharp and what is smooth. Your hands get educated too.

TOUCH/PRESSURE is
EVERYTHING
in shaving -and- honing.

All the resources for learning are laid out before you. Enjoy the ride.

You'll never forget the day, the shave, when you first get an edge velvet buttery smooth. Don't rush it.

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Originally Posted by WadePatton

Bram are you saying Ardennes Coticule sold you a stone with sawmarks in the working surface?

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what I call sawmarks might actually be marks from the flattening device the use, they are realy shallow and on a soft coti they are whiped of using the slurry stone without much effort

I have two, both came with faint sawmarks on it, the first one came from a shop in Antwerpen (Belgium). This stone is actually realy hard and it took some time before the marks faded, I recently found out that all the slurry came from the litle stone, not the hone, to my opinion this is the kind of coticule you want, great finish on water and if you want to speed things up using the soft slurry stone (which already shrunk a few mm in the last couple of months since I don't have a bevelsetter).

the second one is a Les Latneuses which came directly from Ardennes Coticule, the sawmarks on the normal side came right of within a couple of uses (this side has a bid of auto slurrying going on, it's that soft). the hydrid side I still haven't gotten lapped flat, already spend hours on sandpaper and I'm realy considering buying a DMT for this job at the moment.

Hi all,

I too am new to SR shaving and have started to learn how to hone. I first bought a Norton 4/8 and have practiced on this, have since got ambitious and bought a 1/3 to practice bevel setting, the thing I found was it can be addictive and I had to put them down for fear of habitual bad edges. I have since taken deep breaths and relaxed and learnt to become 'at one with the hone' and this has worked quite well, it does take a lot of practice and patience, but I have found that after all the research from books and the net you will find your own style and be comfortable with it. I use a brand new shave ready Boker as my benchmark and have bought many a vintage razor from e-bay to practice with. I wish you luck and happy honing