how do i know when it's as sharp as possible?

For some time I've been struggling to hone my own razor (because there was no one in my country who could do it for me) and managed to get it to the point of being able to shave, although there is a lot to wish for.

Recently SR and DE shaving has become somewhat trendy (damn hipsters probably gonna ruin the beauty of it) where I live and a few barbershops and a store for shaving supplies opened up. Consequently someone who hones razors for money popped up. He is by no means a honemeister and he himself admits that he is still learning (since I'm not qualified to judge, he might be overly modest).
To put my own honing in some perspective, I took my newest razor - stolichnaya ( http://ej.uz/kz4p ) to him.

yesterday I got my first shave with it and I don't really know what to think. I was expecting it to be at least a few magnitudes better than my own honed razor, but in reality it is just a little improvement, so I was kinda dissapointed (but I still don't know if I'm dissapointed in the razor or in the guy who honed it)

Which finally leads me to the question - how sharp can a razor be? Reading the forum leads me to think that hht and all that is nonsense and only by shaving can one judge the blade. So what should I look and feel for? In my imagination the razor shoud scare the whiskers off and feel like cool and smooth unicorn tears of joy on my skin. How far in fairyland am I? I once read that a SR that is as sharp as possible glides through whiskers just as well as it would on smooth skin. Is this true?
I have a very coarse beard and on the chin the shave is far from smooth gliding, although it is not pulling either; still, some force needs to be applied. Is this to be expected?

Also - although I've only gotten a few decent shaves, I already own four razors and look forward to getting more. Is this normal? :)

I had also the same doubts about how sharp my SR could be. I had buy a Shavette and feel exactly that glide over my skin, that I cannot reproduce with my SRs. I guess may be I don't strop properly and my SRs are going dull, or may be the SRs are too sharp for me.

A razor can be overhoned, so I would say the possible keeness of it is limited. It is said, and is my experience, that a straight razor is not as sharp as a razor blade. It doesn't have to be. If it is sharp enough to pass the HHT it should be sharp enough to shave well. How sharp it can be in maximum, probably cannot be answered.

Of course, the quality of the steel is important and what it is honed with. Unicorntears and the lot are probably nonsense. Even with my shavette I can't effortlessly mow through all whiskers all over my face. Alot of a close clean shave is technique and preparation besides a sharp blade. Keep praticing honig and shaving and you will bear fruit.

All experts were beginners once.

Best Wishes from Hamburg,
OldSalt

I have many razors and have been chasing the perfect edge for a while. I have had many very sharable edges both by my hand and others. I always try to have a few benchmarks around. Different hones and different stones have a different feel. Some razor will sharpen super fast on one hone and others not so much. When I had fewer razors and only a couple of hones I thought I knew the answer. The more experience I have the fewer pat answers I have. The acquiring of more razors and spending more time honing is from my perspective looking for the perfect shave. They are elusive and hard to hold. The most important thing is have fun!

I'm going to define sharpness as Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously defined pornography;

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

Kind of like that. I don't know that a razor that gives me a smooth, comfortable shave couldn't be a bit sharper mechanically, but I know when it is sharp enough to deliver the goods for me. Keep at it and you'll see what I mean.

Many folks seem to agonize over this issue. It's really simple. You shave with a razor and the result is a smooth face and there is no pulling or discomfort of any kind. Now whether the razor can be taken to some theoretical degree of sharpness where you can't feel the difference but maybe under a scanning electron microscope you can see it that's a different story.

Once you perfect your technique and prep, + you have correctly honed razor then from there on in you know exactly what a shave ready razor feels like.

I believe the two posts above illustrate the issue well. Addressing Spendur's post first, yes, you could theoretically do some scientific discovery and measurement of the fineness of an edge and define sharpness that way. Jimmy says he will know sharpness when he sees it. I submit that you the scientific method is worthless as you can not measure the shaving quality of the blade in such a manner. The only thing that matters is what happens on your face.

As in all endeavors chasing performance, wringing the last percentile of performance from something requires more effort and expenditure than all of the previous 99% of performance. Now enter the human element and all the other variables in your shave each day and I would challenge you to reliably detect even the last 5% of theoretical sharpness.

Moral of the story, pursue a blade that shaves well and forget this absurdity of the unicorn edge.

My SR is slightly duller than my shavette, but the SR gives me a more comfortable shave. (could be the blade, could my technique).

My first test after honing and a few passes on my bench strop is to shave against the grain on the inside of my forearm. If it doesn't cut those hairs cleanly and comfortably then I keep on honing.

When you did the honing, what did you finish with? (8k stone?10k stone? 12k stone? CrOx strop? etc.)

The only way to answer your question is by honing expertise.
After the razor is honed to as sharp as it can be the edge deteriorates because the steel can not support sharper edge. At that point you've reached the ultimate sharpness of that razor and anything further is called overhoning.

The caveat is that without extensive razor honing experience you can create poor edge far earlier before reaching that ultimate sharpness - because of uneven strokes, contaminated hone, too much pressure, or just not having good hones or good hone progression.

I would also echo what a lot of others have all ready said "shave with it".

kettlebell, you probably didn't read too carefully what I've written. The problem is me having already shaved and being just about satisfied, but not knowing whether I can achieve a better shave. I've shaved with a blade I've honed myself and it was ok. The shave with a professionally honed blade was a bit better. Question is - if it can get even better, and how do I know when to stop hoping, expecting and striving?

I must say that I do have some idea that it obviously goes along the lines of "you never know before you know, you know." :)

It's actually quite a good question. I've always measured my honing ability by judging the edge of razors I'be bought. My first razor, a Burrell Top Flight, was very sharp; and still is. However, I have a light beard and it could be that someone with a heavier beard would judge what I see as a sharp razor as being middling. In other words, maybe I'm easily pleased?

I have sold one razor to a fellow on this site; and he reported that he was happy with my edge; but I think he sent the razor out to be honed and also reported that it was a little better than my edge when it was returned.

Really, a razor should satisfy YOU (unless you're honing for others or selling 'shave ready' razors). Also, as has been stated, you can go too far and end up with a weak edge that will degrade quickly.

I believe there's a thread here somewhere where we discuss sharpness and smoothness; and if there's a trad off. I tend to think there is, but also feel the feel of smoothness may come down to the type of steel and also maybe the razor's profile (wedge Vs Full Hollow), however, I think from memory we (the group pf posters) couldn't or didn't really agree if sharpness and smoothness were related or if a razor that was too sharp lost smoothness; or even if there's such a thing as too sharp...

So, in answer to the question, maybe there is no answer?

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Originally Posted by ifcis

Question is - if it can get even better, and how do I know when to stop hoping, expecting and striving?

I must say that I do have some idea that it obviously goes along the lines of "you never know before you know, you know." :)

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You hit it when you answered your own question. :chapeau

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I have sold one razor to a fellow on this site; and he reported that he was happy with my edge; but I think he sent the razor out to be honed and also reported that it was a little better than my edge when it was returned.

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To be fair you hadnt honed that razor for a good few months before it came to me, and it was another couple of months until i sent it to another member here on a razor swap, and he ran it over his hones for me, and yes it did come back with a nice edge, but the edge i received from you (despite being a few months old) was very nice and mellow.
I think that i prefer a mellow edge over a really sharp but harsh freshly honed edge.

It's also good to have a reference razor honed by a pro so that you know what is possible. By doing this, and with some practice, before long I was able to get edges that were about 90% as good as the honemeister edges (in my face's estimation) off an 8k Norton. A couple of years later, with a couple of finishing stones and much more experience, I can get maybe 95-96% "there" (just an estimate). Keep shaving with it, then going back and tinkering (maybe a few more ultralight finishing strokes on soapy water, followed by some good stropping).

Everything is relative. There are no absolutes. That's why the pages of this site are full of folks spending a wad of cash to get the best hone for the ultimate edge and a razor with the best steel and a strop with the best leather or the DE and blade combo that gives them the best shave or the pre shave routine that does the most or the best brush and soap. You get the idea.

Confucius say:Man who shave on the cheap and who have closed mind get best shave in the world. Everyone else never sure.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Everything is relative. There are no absolutes. That's why the pages of this site are full of folks spending a wad of cash to get the best hone for the ultimate edge and a razor with the best steel and a strop with the best leather or the DE and blade combo that gives them the best shave or the pre shave routine that does the most or the best brush and soap. You get the idea.

Confucius say:Man who shave on the cheap and who have closed mind get best shave in the world. Everyone else never sure.

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Kind of like what that buddy of mine told me 30 years ago, "If you can't be satisfied with what you get, you'll never be satisfied with what you have." :boohoo:

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Originally Posted by edhewitt

To be fair you hadnt honed that razor for a good few months before it came to me, and it was another couple of months until i sent it to another member here on a razor swap, and he ran it over his hones for me, and yes it did come back with a nice edge, but the edge i received from you (despite being a few months old) was very nice and mellow.
I think that i prefer a mellow edge over a really sharp but harsh freshly honed edge.

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Yeah, that's true. I also like a more mellow edge...