What did I do wrong with my Shaptons?

Got a set of Shapton 4K/8K/16K glass stones this week. I also got an Atoma 1200 for lapping. Now, my Henckels-Friodur 7/8 full hollow was due for a refresh (or so I thought). So I lapped the Shaptons and went to work on the razor.

I did twenty strokes on the 4K, ten on the 8K, and five on the 16K. Followed up with 80 strokes on linen, 40 on leather. I then did my normal pre-shave routine, but when I put the blade to my face it was completely dull.

Where did I go wrong, and what can I do to bring back the edge?

Will be blunt,sorry,how long have you been honing razors?

That's doesn't sound like a refresh...when I refresh a blade, it's maybe 25-30 laps on the Nani 12k, then crox, then 100 leather...you went way down.

edited to add: realized my post may have sounded abrupt, didn't intend anything, got distracted for a second in the SRP Classifieds!

JimmyHAD has given some grand advice to get you on the right track. Good luck!

I'm assuming you've been honing right along before you got the Shaptons ? Had some success with other hones/razors ? I don't know what shape your Henckles was in when you started. If it only needed a touch up I would have gone to the 16k and done 5 round trips. Stropped and given it a try. If that didn't get it, 5 more, and if that didn't get it maybe down to the 8k for some strokes and back to the strop and try it. If it seemed to be making enough progress back to the 16 and maybe that would be it. Where it is at now, I don't know what to tell you.

In general with a dull razor I start at the low grits and work up to the higher grits. With a sharp razor, needing a touch up I start high grit and only go lower if I have to. Not sure if that is the "right" way but it is what I do. If you are experienced enough with honing to go forward with a progression maybe start at 4k and work back up. If you're not experienced the pyramid method works very well with Shaptons like with Nortons. Go to the SRP library and check out the pyramid honing, and honing alternative approaches. It is by the numbers and it is easier for an new honer to do than the progressive method. Was that way for me anyhow.

There's no way to say that a certain number of strokes on any given grit/hone is right or wrong. The real question that needs to be asked is what it needs. If I'm doing a refresh, I normally either use my finishing stone or drop down one grit and back up to the finishing stone.....depending on what it needs.

I've used the Shapton 16k many times to "refresh" my razors,,,I only do 6 to 8 light strokes ,,,then strop.

FME, Shap glass are very aggressive. You are lucky to have them. You are possibly not hitting the edge, Do a Sharpie test and see. A layer of tape or more honing might be required! As to Shapton Glass, Less is best, I think!

I do have experience with honing, but only on wedges. I started off with half- and full-hollows but couldn't get a good shave with them. I soon found that wedges were "easier" to shave with as a beginner. This Friodur razor is my first hollow since I started straight shaving about 4 years ago. The progression I used above was what has worked to refresh a wedge for me, as well as the pyramid method. (I didn't use the pyramid method this time due to warnings included with the shaptons). On a wedge, I found using only a finishing stone was not enough. I guess I was just used to doing what worked with a heavier grind.

So, time to start over on the 4K and spend more time there and at the 8K?

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Originally Posted by supersco

I do have experience with honing, but only on wedges. I started off with half- and full-hollows but couldn't get a good shave with them. I soon found that wedges were "easier" to shave with as a beginner. This Friodur razor is my first hollow since I started straight shaving about 4 years ago. The progression I used above was what has worked to refresh a wedge for me, as well as the pyramid method. (I didn't use the pyramid method this time due to warnings included with the shaptons). On a wedge, I found using only a finishing stone was not enough. I guess I was just used to doing what worked with a heavier grind.

So, time to start over on the 4K and spend more time there and at the 8K?

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Please tell us about the warning re pyramids with the Shaptons . The only instructions I got were in Japanese.

I woder if you are using too much pressure honing the hollow blade ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Please tell us about the warning re pyramids with the Shaptons . The only instructions I got were in Japanese.

I woder if you are using too much pressure honing the hollow blade ?

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It says something like "Make sure to thoroughly wash your tool before going to the next grade. Debris from lower grits may damage your tool." I'm going off of memory here, but the English translation was surprisingly good. It doesn't really say not to use pyramids, I guess that's just how I interpreted it.

As to pressure, I was using none at all. I'm used to having to use some pressure with a wedge, so this time I made a conscious effort not to use any pressure.

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Originally Posted by supersco

Got a set of Shapton 4K/8K/16K glass stones this week. I also got an Atoma 1200 for lapping. Now, my Henckels-Friodur 7/8 full hollow was due for a refresh (or so I thought). So I lapped the Shaptons and went to work on the razor.

I did twenty strokes on the 4K, ten on the 8K, and five on the 16K. Followed up with 80 strokes on linen, 40 on leather. I then did my normal pre-shave routine, but when I put the blade to my face it was completely dull.

Where did I go wrong, and what can I do to bring back the edge?

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Maybe you unset the bevel by dropping so low on the grits. When you bought the razor if it was shave ready did you ask whether tape was used or not when it was honed. I only asked because this has happened to me. The only thing to do in these circumstances is to reset the bevel.

Good points above. Who honed the razor first time. If it was factory set. Bevel will likely need work.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Good points above. Who honed the razor first time. If it was factory set. Bevel will likely need work.

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+1. A 40x eye loupe, or a microscope with good lighting, and afterwards marking the edge with a sharpie to make sure you're making correct strokes/contact with the bevel all across the hone.

Keeping one grit from contaminating another is just a matter of rinsing each hone, wiping/rinsing the blade between stones. When doing pyramids I've always been careful not to carry grit from the 4k to the 8k, and ignored rinsing going back down from the 8k to the 4k.

It could be a PITA depending on where you're honing but at the kitchen sink it is easy to do. Whether it is a Shapton, a Norton or any other 4k/8k pyramid it is prudent to keep away from contaminating the 8k with the 4k. At least it makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by supersco

Got a set of Shapton 4K/8K/16K glass stones this week. I also got an Atoma 1200 for lapping. Now, my Henckels-Friodur 7/8 full hollow was due for a refresh (or so I thought). So I lapped the Shaptons and went to work on the razor.

I did twenty strokes on the 4K, ten on the 8K, and five on the 16K. Followed up with 80 strokes on linen, 40 on leather. I then did my normal pre-shave routine, but when I put the blade to my face it was completely dull.

Where did I go wrong, and what can I do to bring back the edge?

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Bringing things back into focus here...

Tell me if I have any of the facts wrong

The razor was shaving before, you just wanted to tweak it up a notch
You lapped the Shaptons before use
You dropped back to the 4 -8 - 16
You did a conservative progression
You have honed before
You used light pressure

Reading your post above the only thing that stands out as even slightly odd to my eyes is the linen vs leather stropping,,, mine would have been the reversed, but I doubt that means anything anyway...

Also in post #10 the statement "As to pressure, I was using none at all" that always makes me suspect because you have to use enough pressure to control the razor and keep the edge in correct contact with the hone..

+1 on what Glen said on the stropping, after honing I usually do 10-15 on linen and 50-70 leather

It could be a tape or pressure issue, if it was taped previously and you didn't, you might not be hitting the edge. In the opposite scenario (not taped before and you used tape) you are re-setting the bevel.

I use progressively less pressure as I go up the hone ladder.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Bringing things back into focus here...

Tell me if I have any of the facts wrong

The razor was shaving before, you just wanted to tweak it up a notch
You lapped the Shaptons before use
You dropped back to the 4 -8 - 16
You did a conservative progression
You have honed before
You used light pressure

Reading your post above the only thing that stands out as even slightly odd to my eyes is the linen vs leather stropping,,, mine would have been the reversed, but I doubt that means anything anyway...

Also in post #10 the statement "As to pressure, I was using none at all" that always makes me suspect because you have to use enough pressure to control the razor and keep the edge in correct contact with the hone..

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All of that is correct. And by pressure, I mean that I used enough to keep the edge in contact and guide the blade, but no more than that. Just the weight.

I would only use that light of pressure on the 16k, you can use more, especially on the 4k

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Originally Posted by supersco

All of that is correct. And by pressure, I mean that I used enough to keep the edge in contact and guide the blade, but no more than that. Just the weight.

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Originally Posted by rodb

+1 on what Glen said on the stropping, after honing I usually do 10-15 on linen and 50-70 leather

It could be a tape or pressure issue, if it was taped previously and you didn't, you might not be hitting the edge. In the opposite scenario (not taped before and you used tape) you are re-setting the bevel.

I use progressively less pressure as I go up the hone ladder.

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To you and others who asked about whether it was taped...I do not know. When I ordered the razor from shavingshop.com, I put a special note on the order asking whether it would be taped, and then I emailed them later about whether it was taped. I never got a reply. So I don't really know.

I do have a 20x jewellers loupe. Maybe I should try the sharpie test to see if my strokes are making contact?

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Originally Posted by supersco

To you and others who asked about whether it was taped...I do not know. When I ordered the razor from shavingshop.com, I put a special note on the order asking whether it would be taped, and then I emailed them later about whether it was taped. I never got a reply. So I don't really know.

I do have a 20x jewellers loupe. Maybe I should try the sharpie test to see if my strokes are making contact?

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Won't cost you anything if you have the sharpie. I wipe mine off as soon as I'm done seeing the results. I don't wait until I've honed the razor IOW. Check it out with that loupe too. Under a gooseneck, or whatever type of good light source you have.

If it wasn't taped initially, and you did tape it, you may see a slight double bevel when you look through the loupe. I'd opt for tape if I were you, one way or the other. I used to tape, then stopped for a couple of years, but now I'm back to tape and sticking with it .......... no pun intended. :)

Was the razor honed with tape before and now you are not using it, if so then you are not hitting the edge

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Originally Posted by Ruger

Was the razor honed with tape before and now you are not using it, if so then you are not hitting the edge

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I finally had time yesterday to take the Henckels back to the hones. I tried the sharpie test and I can definitely say now that the razor was not taped previously.

This time I did the full pyramid. Unfortunately, the shave was not that much better. Definitely sharper than after my first progression, but nowhere near as sharp as the edge was when I received it. Good news is that my new Ralf Aust should be here anyday, so I'm not without a razor.

I guess it couldn't hurt to try some tape and see if I can get a better result. If that doesn't work I'll just have to ship it to a honemeister to reset the bevel I guess.

Thoughts? One layer of tape, or two?

Wait and compare.

Well, I've had two shaves with the Ralf Aust, and I have to say I'm not impressed :(

The Henckels had a better edge. From the factory at least. Not sure if I sure try another conservative pyramid on it, or try taping, or a combination of both.

My recent Aust blade had a serviceable edge from the factory, but not anything spectacular...along the lines of AAA baseball, not the World Series. Some quick work on a couple Naniwa SS stones (8k and 12k) really brought the edge out to Playoff quality (I'm not good enough to achieve World Series level edges). I think that is pretty much the standard with most production razors.

Forget the word "Tape" you are getting hung up on it :(

Decide before you wet the hone and pick up the razor if you are going to use tape or not, it is your choice and honestly it doesn't matter either way UNLESS there is a geometry issue.. The MM test should have let you know if there was, along with spine wear..

Forget everything that has happened in the past with the razor,,

Go watch Lynn's Shapton honing vid, or my Shapton honing vid, and follow one of them from start to finish, then strop and shave... give it a 110% effort to get it perfect, take your time don't rush...

Now if that Henckels doesn't pop an edge for you after that, I will hone it for you on my Shaptons so you have an idea of what is possible off those stones, shipping is on you, honing is on me


I do not expect to have to hone the razor :D I think you will get it right :tu

Do you have a link to either you or Lynn's shapton videos by chance? Can't seem to find it in the library.

Edit: nvm, google is your friend.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Forget the word "Tape" you are getting hung up on it :(

Decide before you wet the hone and pick up the razor if you are going to use tape or not, it is your choice and honestly it doesn't matter either way UNLESS there is a geometry issue.. The MM test should have let you know if there was, along with spine wear..

Forget everything that has happened in the past with the razor,,

Go watch Lynn's Shapton honing vid, or my Shapton honing vid, and follow one of them from start to finish, then strop and shave... give it a 110% effort to get it perfect, take your time don't rush...

Now if that Henckels doesn't pop an edge for you after that, I will hone it for you on my Shaptons so you have an idea of what is possible off those stones, shipping is on you, honing is on me


I do not expect to have to hone the razor :D I think you will get it right :tu

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Ok, I watched both videos. I ended up trying Lynn's technique only because he was starting with a factory edge, and mine was a factory edge before I tried to refresh it which started this whole thread. Plus, I don't have the 1K, 6K and 30K glass stones like you. I've got the 4k/8k/16k. I didn't use tape as the magic marker test proved it was not taped previously.

Results were....better. It's close to how it was shaving before I dorked it all up. Much less tugging, but maybe not as buttery smooth as I would like.

I really appreciate your offer to hone it for me, that's why you're the best, but I'd like to make this a learning opportunity. Can you offer any advice on where to go from here? I really don't think I need to reset the bevel, but I can pick up a 1K glass stone if you think that would help. Alternatively, maybe I need to work on my finishing? I don't have any pastes, but those are cheap if you think they could help refine the edge.

The 16k is a sweet stone, but it can be a bit harsh when you are learning it,,

You might try the 3-2-1 style Finish like I show on that Shapton Vid you might also try a light slurry dilution into the finish, these are things you are going to have to mess with as you adjust your honing to your face on a new system of hones... Yes a good quality CrOx or even better a high quality CeOx might very well smooth it right up..

But you are getting closer and that is a step in the right direction :tu

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Originally Posted by supersco

I really don't think I need to reset the bevel, but I can pick up a 1K glass stone if you think that would help. Alternatively, maybe I need to work on my finishing? I don't have any pastes, but those are cheap if you think they could help refine the edge.

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I started with the same set up as you, except I had a 1k king from my wood working days. Latter I bought a Chosera 1k and latter the 1k & 2k shapton glass ( so I could have the whole set) thinking that it would work better all shapton glass progression. All systems worked fine. However I prefer 1K Chosera for bevel set and then go to the 4k, 8k and 16k, I now hardly use the 1k & 2k shapton glass any more.

Also, CrOx on hard wool felt strop is key to get an irritation free shave out of the 16k shapton glass, at least for me. Glen mention slury with the 16k glass and that works for me to some extent. Simpler, IMO, is the CrOx or CeOx thought.

For best comfortable shaves, I'm going to naturals now. Although one of my best shavers ever (Henckles Friodur) was finished on 16k and CrOx on hardwool felt strop. Went full circle with naturals and it didn't shave better, until I went back to 16k SG and CrOx. Just to show you sometimes the best it's in front of us, but we get on our mind that more exotic or expensive it's better!

Double O

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Originally Posted by Double0757

I started with the same set up as you, except I had a 1k king from my wood working days. Latter I bought a Chosera 1k and latter the 1k & 2k shapton glass ( so I could have the whole set) thinking that it would work better all shapton glass progression. All systems worked fine. However I prefer 1K Chosera for bevel set and then go to the 4k, 8k and 16k, I now hardly use the 1k & 2k shapton glass any more.

Also, CrOx on hard wool felt strop is key to get an irritation free shave out of the 16k shapton glass, at least for me. Glen mention slury with the 16k glass and that works for me to some extent. Simpler, IMO, is the CrOx or CeOx thought.

For best comfortable shaves, I'm going to naturals now. Although one of my best shavers ever (Henckles Friodur) was finished on 16k and CrOx on hardwool felt strop. Went full circle with naturals and it didn't shave better, until I went back to 16k SG and CrOx. Just to show you sometimes the best it's in front of us, but we get on our mind that more exotic or expensive it's better!

Double O

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This is very interesting to me as the razor in question is in fact a Henckles Friodur. Maybe when I get some spare cash I'll pick up a felt strop and CrOx. What are the practical differences between CrOx and CeOx when it comes to razors?

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Originally Posted by supersco

This is very interesting to me as the razor in question is in fact a Henckles Friodur. Maybe when I get some spare cash I'll pick up a felt strop and CrOx. What are the practical differences between CrOx and CeOx when it comes to razors?

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I would learn how to get the best possible edge off your hones before you go to pastes. Pastes are like icing on the cake - but they aren't going to do much if you're starting with no cake to support the icing.

I've experimented with various pastes and different diamond sprays - typically on balsa - and while they can improve an edge, I much prefer to go straight from my Shapton 30K or my newly found favorite Zulu Grey to the strop.

-john

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The 16k is a sweet stone, but it can be a bit harsh when you are learning it,,

You might try the 3-2-1 style Finish like I show on that Shapton Vid you might also try a light slurry dilution into the finish, these are things you are going to have to mess with as you adjust your honing to your face on a new system of hones... Yes a good quality CrOx or even better a high quality CeOx might very well smooth it right up..

But you are getting closer and that is a step in the right direction :tu

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BTW Glen, the 3-2-1 finish did make an improvement. Good tip.