The wrong question with no right answer; stroke count.

I know that asking how many strokes to hone a razor is considered an illegitimate question by most, but I'm curious what are your general guidelines? I am asking how many strokes, post bevel set, per stone. I use a Nani 5k, Norton 8k, Nani 12k, and then whatever finisher tickles my fancy at the time. I don't use the circle method often, unless I have a razor with near perfect/linear geometry. Generally after bevel set I will do 50 strokes on my 5k and then 30 at the 8k. Does this seem high or low to anyone more experienced?

Different steels vary in their performance on the stone. That's why you cannot give a solid stroke count.

Do you have an average though or a starting point you begin with? I was reading something about it being actually quite difficult to overhone a blade without going way overboard. Is that true? Is it possible to overhone at the 4/5k level? Sorry, I know that is a lot of random questions to tack on, but something I was also wondering.

This is really a hard question because of so many variables, but at least you asked about the count AFTER the bevel set hehehe

Honestly your's seem a bit high, but it is more important to go by feel rather then count it really really is, I would drop your count down and see what happens to the feel of the edge across the hone..

How the razor shaves is the ultimate test, if you think yours can get better then start adjusting the way you are honing, if it gets better, then keep tweaking one thing at a time until your returns reverse and you start losing ground... There is a ton of trial and error when chasing edges

I guess I'll be the crazy one that throws out some numbers.... :gth

I do go by feel but the strokes usually land in this ballpark with the stones around the grit I mention. Add an extra 10% if it is stainless steel.

Bevel set: 40 circles on each side with light pressure on a 1k Norton. Usually followed by twenty or so x strokes
Post bevel sharpen: 40 circles on each side with light pressure on 4k Norton
Sharpen: 40 circles on each side with no pressure on 4k Norton. Usually followed by five or so x strokes
Polish: 8 x strokes on 8k Norton with no pressure
Finish stone: 10 x strokes on 12k naniwa with no pressure
Finish strop: 10 x strokes on CrOx strop with no pressure
Clean strop: 10 x strokes on linen
Final strop: 30 x strokes on leather
Shave

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aa1192

Do you have an average though or a starting point you begin with? I was reading something about it being actually quite difficult to overhone a blade without going way overboard. Is that true? Is it possible to overhone at the 4/5k level? Sorry, I know that is a lot of random questions to tack on, but something I was also wondering.

---

No,,,,,,,,because every blade is an "individual",,,,,,,,,,,,when I first pick up a razor to hone it, I have no predetermined routine/method, I inspect each blade with a loop before it touches a stone, I think about what needs to be done, the type of steel I'm dealing with,,,then I choose the stones,,,I let each stone dictate the next level/progression.

I will try toning down my numbers I guess then. I have only recently began increasing laps to see if I have better results. If overhoning is as difficult as it was made to seem; I figured why not do extra laps. This is why I asked what are some ballpark numbers for everyone honing. However limited in scope numbers may be I guess I'm looking for some guidance that is not in the pyramid format.
My limited experience so far has been after the bevel set each blade follows a pretty similar routine in honing. I have yet to sharpen a stainless blade though and will be interested to see how that changes things. I don't obey a set system, but get to a certain number then do some tests and take it from there. I'm super curious though can you overhone at the sharpening stage or is it only at the point of polishing and up?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aa1192

I don't obey a set system, but get to a certain number then do some tests and take it from there. I'm super curious though can you overhone at the sharpening stage or is it only at the point of polishing and up?

---

There you go just feel your way through best bet always :)


The first indication of pushing the edge to far is most likely going to be a diminishing count in the number of shaves from that edge.. Unless you use excessive pressure or laps overhoning is a small problem, it just isn't that easy.. Look for a drop in Comfort and a drop in Longevity to tell you to back off :)

Your amount of light pressure and Criswilson's amount of light pressure might be the same difference between my no pressure and my light pressure :<0) He may be honing American steel and your honing Sheffield. I am honing German. How many differences do you see here ?
I would ask you to try this. When you go up to the next grit do you feel the blade start to glide across the stone with less feedback ? In other words how long before it starts to feel smoother. Does it feel smooth all the way across the blade on the lap ? Start trying to feel it and you can forget counting. Now, I defer to sixgun's expertise, he has been honing a lot longer than I have. I am just sharing how I got past counting and pyramids. Good ways to get started but my confidence level went up 10 fold when I began to feel what was going on. This means on the hone and then on the face.

And criswilson does not do enough laps on the linen or the final strop :<0) If he tripled those last 2 steps I bet he could feel the difference. If not he hasn't shaved enough with a straight yet to tell. No offense cris , just my opinion based on my experience again!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 10Pups

I would ask you to try this. When you go up to the next grit do you feel the blade start to glide across the stone with less feedback ? In other words how long before it starts to feel smoother. Does it feel smooth all the way across the blade on the lap ? Start trying to feel it and you can forget counting. Now, I defer to sixgun's expertise, he has been honing a lot longer than I have.

---

Defer nutin brother that is exactly what I am trying to say also, we are preaching from the same book :)

I will try using that feedback more. I currently go by what I see in the loupe, tpt, and some hair trimming.

Assuming that my bevel is properly set, I rarely go beyond 30 laps on 4k, 30 on 8K, 20 on 12K and then 20 laps on my 20K. From the bevel set on up, it is just a matter of refining and polishing. I suspect that I can get by with fewer laps on each successive stone, but I continue to do what has worked for me.

The hardest thing with numbers is really the bevel set part of the process. You just don't know considering the condition of the razor and even that will fool you sometimes, what it will take to get a good bevel. That said and as mentioned above, without a properly set bevel, you are conducting an exercise in frustration in most cases.

I do count the circles and X strokes in the bevel setting process, but it can take a few sets and a few more strokes depending on the razor. The microscope is a tremendous help here to insure that you get the bevel set all the way to the edge on both sides.

Now, after the bevel is set and I am using the Naniwa Super Stones and Suehiro 20K almost exclusively these days after the Chosera 1K bevel set, I can lay down a dozen razors and count and normally come away with a dozen really nice shavers. Part of this is because I hone a couple dozen razors almost every day and most of this is because it simply works with more consistency and reliability than other methods I have tried and I think I have tried most of the methods out there.

For me after the Chosera 1K it is:

40 circles firm pressure on the Naniwa SS 5K
40 circles weight of the blade pressure on the Naniwa SS 5K
5-6 weight of the blade X strokes on the Naniwa SS 5K
6-7 weight of the blade X strokes on the Naniwa SS 8K
10 weight of the blade X strokes on the Naniwa SS 12K
12-15 weight of the blade X strokes on the Suehiro 20K

Strop and shave. This works for me on virtually every make of razor without exception other than the do not buy types of razors or the razors whose condition requires a rolling X to get sharp.

YMMV :D

Have fun.

10 on linen and 30 on leather seems very light on the stropping. I have found that 75 on webbing around 45 seconds and 150 under 2 minutes on leather is a minimum for a razor just off the hone.

I'll defer to the others for the linen and final leather stropping numbers. I've been honing a long time, but shaving only a few months. Tomorrow I'm increasing my time on the linen (thanks Glen and no offense taken).

Those honing numbers are just a baseline average and they probably are skewed toward German steel. I go by feel, but I'm OCD enough that I have to write down the numbers for different metals with different hones to find the best solution. <sarcasm>Doesn't everyone have multiple notebooks of honing procedures??? <end sarcasm> ;-)

I consider over honing to be removing more metal than necessary to get it sharp. At some point you are not making it any sharper, you are just removing more metal. At 3k and above it is hard to do any serious over honing damage. At 12k and above I think your arms would tire out before you really did any damage. Below 1k it can happen pretty quickly.

I will add that it is possible to over sharpen a blade. I polished mine down to 0.001 micron and when laid flat on the skin of my arm it nicked me from just the weight of the blade. There was no way I was putting that on my face.

I hate to seem impossibly contradictory here but there is no such thing as too sharp or over stropping :<0)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by criswilson10

I'll defer to the others for the linen and final leather stropping numbers. I've been honing a long time, but shaving only a few months. Tomorrow I'm increasing my time on the linen (thanks Glen and no offense taken).

Those honing numbers are just a baseline average and they probably are skewed toward German steel. I go by feel, but I'm OCD enough that I have to write down the numbers for different metals with different hones to find the best solution. <sarcasm>Doesn't everyone have multiple notebooks of honing procedures??? <end sarcasm> ;-)

I consider over honing to be removing more metal than necessary to get it sharp. At some point you are not making it any sharper, you are just removing more metal. At 3k and above it is hard to do any serious over honing damage. At 12k and above I think your arms would tire out before you really did any damage. Below 1k it can happen pretty quickly.

I will add that it is possible to over sharpen a blade. I polished mine down to 0.001 micron and when laid flat on the skin of my arm it nicked me from just the weight of the blade. There was no way I was putting that on my face.

---

Too sharp for my girlish face has certainly happened to me but I know there are other guys who love it. I guess I am going overboard at the 8k level it seems. I hate this now I'm stuck at work with honing on the brain. I wish I could get the circle method but I'm terrible with it other than on the initial bevel set. I'm sure it doesn't help if the razor has a few issues to start.

"I hate to seem impossibly contradictory here but there is no such thing as too sharp"

I've got a diamond microtome at work that you might want to try then. It's beyond scary sharp. Accidentally touching the blade will result in stitches.

Seriously though, there is a level where things can be too sharp to be safely used for their intended purpose. .25 micron is about as sharp as I'll go on a razor and I prefer the feel of .5 micron CrOx. YMMV

Im in on the side of no such thing as too sharp, maybe too harsh ,, I never get cut by my sharp razors ,only the ones that are starting to dull, I also have a razor (Kinfolks) that is scary sharp , ive not had anything sharper in my stable (thanks to Glen/Gssixgun) and no cuts or rash, and it might not be the sharpest out there, but youll have to go along way to beat it, yet its still smooth ,, which really is the key to a shave ready razor my opinion only, tc

I would love to get a microscope and see what visually looks harsh or smooth to my skin. I wonder if there is a very clear visible difference you can see.

You might like this video - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqy49-yHXw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aa1192

I would love to get a microscope and see what visually looks harsh or smooth to my skin. I wonder if there is a very clear visible difference you can see.

---

Nope, a microscope will tell you diddly about how the edge will feel on your face. Only your face will tell you that. A scope will show chips, wires & other anomalies but 2 nice shavers can appear radically different, edge wise under a scope. Aiming for highly polished bevels as in the above video can be a great step to a harsh edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Nope, a microscope will tell you diddly about how the edge will feel on your face. Only your face will tell you that. A scope will show chips, wires & other anomalies but 2 nice shavers can appear radically different, edge wise under a scope. Aiming for highly polished bevels as in the above video can be a great step to a harsh edge.

---

Onimaru55, I have to respectfully disagree. Your implication is that science cannot quantify a smooth shave. I believe it can. In fact, in Ken's video it was not the highly polished edge he was discussing, but rather the very modeled edge of a JNat. We know what makes a harsh shave. Microchips, wire edges, unevenly honed edges, under-honed edges and fragile edges which develop microchips during the shave. This is why we strive to achieve a keen edge from toe to heel, and as durable an edge as can be achieved with a specific formulation and heat treatment of steel. It is not difficult to look at an edge that is proven harsh with a microscope and identify the problem. Smooth shaves can be achieved with various honing tools, from synthetics to naturals, cloths, pastes and particle micron sprays. The result is quantifiable. Honing an edge is not magic, it is science. Scalpels are made by the hundreds of thousands in a factory with quantifiable repeatable results. Our quest as SR enthusiasts is to achieve these results in our homes with humble stones and strops. But we do not depart from science simply because we are using inconsistent stones of variable grit, speed, pressure and count. Our results are quantifiable; and a microscope under the purview of a skilled observer can predict what will be smooth and what will be harsh. The biggest challenge of my premise would be the fragile edge which will vary with the steel. But, with experience on a specific razor, and with practice, this challenge can be overcome, and a predictable result can be achieved with the aid of a microscope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avenolpey

Onimaru55, I have to respectfully disagree. Your implication is that science cannot quantify a smooth shave. I believe it can. In fact, in Ken's video it was not the highly polished edge he was discussing, but rather the very modeled edge of a JNat. We know what makes a harsh shave. Microchips, wire edges, unevenly honed edges, under-honed edges and fragile edges which develop microchips during the shave. This is why we strive to achieve a keen edge from toe to heel, and as durable an edge as can be achieved with a specific formulation and heat treatment of steel. It is not difficult to look at an edge that is proven harsh with a microscope and identify the problem. Smooth shaves can be achieved with various honing tools, from synthetics to naturals, cloths, pastes and particle micron sprays. The result is quantifiable. Honing an edge is not magic, it is science. Scalpels are made by the hundreds of thousands in a factory with quantifiable repeatable results. Our quest as SR enthusiasts is to achieve these results in our homes with humble stones and strops. But we do not depart from science simply because we are using inconsistent stones of variable grit, speed, pressure and count. Our results are quantifiable; and a microscope under the purview of a skilled observer can predict what will be smooth and what will be harsh. The biggest challenge of my premise would be the fragile edge which will vary with the steel. But, with experience on a specific razor, and with practice, this challenge can be overcome, and a predictable result can be achieved with the aid of a microscope.

---

My 2 cents,,,,
I understand this statement, but I see one very important thing left out here,,,the "Human Element" and the term that you have chosen to use,,,that of a "smooth shave". Without the human element, the face, there is no smooth shave. There is only a well honed edge, either by the mechanics that you have stated above or the simple application of a barber hone in the hands of a skilled shaver. You may have achieved the most scientifically uniformed cutting edge, but that edge will perform differently on a group of shavers,,,,, lets not overlook the all the other elements that produce a "smooth shave" , other than an exceptional edge. Just my thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

My 2 cents,,,,
I understand this statement, but I see one very important thing left out here,,,the "Human Element" and the term that you have chosen to use,,,that of a "smooth shave". Without the human element, the face, there is no smooth shave. There is only a well honed edge, either by the mechanics that you have stated above or the simple application of a barber hone in the hands of a skilled shaver. You may have achieved the most scientifically uniformed cutting edge, but that edge will perform differently on a group of shavers,,,,, lets not overlook the all the other elements that produce a "smooth shave" , other than an exceptional edge. Just my thoughts.

---

Well stated. I could not agree more that the definition of a "smooth shave" comes from the test shave and not the observation under the microscope. Once that "smooth shave" has been defined, the edge that produced said "smooth shave" can be evaluated and repeated on a given razor with the use of visual inspection. And, as Hirlau implies, what is smooth will vary with skin type, whisker type and technique.

Aa1192's original quest was to use a microscope to observe the edges that were smooth versus harsh to his skin. My argument is that his quest is achievable. And Hirlau correctly emphasizes that the "test shave" is the determinant of success. and the microscope simply provides a visual representation of that edge that we attempt to repeat.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by aa1192 http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...post-right.png
I would love to get a microscope and see what visually looks harsh or smooth to my skin. I wonder if there is a very clear visible difference you can see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avenolpey

Well stated. I could not agree more that the definition of a "smooth shave" comes from the test shave and not the observation under the microscope. Once that "smooth shave" has been defined, the edge that produced said "smooth shave" can be evaluated and repeated on a given razor with the use of visual inspection. And, as Hirlau implies, what is smooth will vary with skin type, whisker type and technique.

Aa1192's original quest was to use a microscope to observe the edges that were smooth versus harsh to his skin. My argument is that his quest is achievable. And Hirlau correctly emphasizes that the "test shave" is the determinant of success. and the microscope simply provides a visual representation of that edge that we attempt to repeat.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by aa1192 http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...post-right.png
I would love to get a microscope and see what visually looks harsh or smooth to my skin. I wonder if there is a very clear visible difference you can see.

---

What concerns me about the OP is that will become dependant on the visual aid to determine his success in honing, then frustration sets in when the edge does not perform as well as it looks. I use 5 or 6 different visual aids (would love to have a digital scope, maybe in February),,, to guide my evaluation of a blade. So I'm not against them,, they spot the blades problems & set the course for the first stone.

I think the OP would do well with a loop & a small handheld to evaluate his blades, just keeping in mind that what looks good under the glass, may not feel good on the face.

I am actually way too cool for a regular old loupe Hirlau! That's why I bought these bad boys:
Attachment 170238

I'm pretty sure I look awesome like this guy except without facial hair. They are so rad my gf gets all giddy and laughs really hard due to my overwhelming coolness/attractiveness with them on I think. For right now I feel pretty good using the TPT and shave test for my final edges. The loupe is a bevel set/ moving stone to stone tool for me. I just wonder if under the scope there is a stand out for what I consider an ideal or harsh blade. I didn't mean like it would be the end all be all of whats a good blade for me. "Sure it took off the skin all the way to the hypodermis, but man it looks good on the scope!" It would just be a cool experiment to me, but perhaps it may not work. I like coti edges, but from pics i have seen they actually look pretty darn rough.

For proper blades(with no chips or warping etc.) using a Norton 1k stone, I find it close to golden ratio, ie. I spend 5x strokes on the bevel setter stone, 3x strokes on the mid-level (4k) stone, and 2x strokes on the finer stones. In this formula total number of strokes is decided by the number of strokes to set the bevel. So if you have to make total 100 strokes for bevel setting, approximately 60 strokes for 4k hone and approximately 40 strokes total for the finer hones works for me.

If your bevel setter stone leaves deep scratches(dmt 1200 plate etc.) more strokes on the higher grit stones will be needed. If you have a chosera 1k or similar bevel setter stone that does not leave deep scratches less strokes on the higher grit stones will be needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avenolpey

Onimaru55, I have to respectfully disagree.
No problemo. I would've disagreed with me too a few years ago but I've honed enough razors & seen enough crazy things under the scope to have changed my mind. When you shave test & find a great shave that looks like rubbish under the scope you may change your mind too.
Your implication is that science cannot quantify a smooth shave.
Not implying anything. Stating for a fact that what you see under a microscope will not guarantee a bad or good shave test . It is but a guide to the next step, like the infamous HHT.
I believe it can. In fact, in Ken's video it was not the highly polished edge he was discussing, but rather the very modeled edge of a JNat. We know what makes a harsh shave. Microchips, wire edges, unevenly honed edges, under-honed edges and fragile edges which develop microchips during the shave. This is why we strive to achieve a keen edge from toe to heel, and as durable an edge as can be achieved with a specific formulation and heat treatment of steel. It is not difficult to look at an edge that is proven harsh with a microscope and identify the problem.
It is the shave test that proves the edge harsh or otherwise not how it looks. The scope may show changes made with corrections but you will hone past an ideal edge looking for idealistic cosmetics.
Smooth shaves can be achieved with various honing tools, from synthetics to naturals, cloths, pastes and particle micron sprays. The result is quantifiable. Honing an edge is not magic, it is science. Scalpels are made by the hundreds of thousands in a factory with quantifiable repeatable results. Our quest as SR enthusiasts is to achieve these results in our homes with humble stones and strops. "Nope, I want much better than a scalpel for my shaves." :)
But we do not depart from science simply because we are using inconsistent stones of variable grit, speed, pressure and count. Our results are quantifiable; and a microscope under the purview of a skilled observer can predict what will be smooth and what will be harsh. The biggest challenge of my premise would be the fragile edge which will vary with the steel. But, with experience on a specific razor, and with practice, this challenge can be overcome, and a predictable result can be achieved with the aid of a microscope.
You can predict all you want but all you are predicting is that the razor is ready for a shavetest. When 4 more featherlight strokes on the finisher might make all the difference to the shave I'd bet you'll have a hard time seeing much difference with the scope. Please post your pics if you can demonstrate such a slight visual change.

---

Below are some pictures I hope may shake up people's belief systems. :)

First is a wide & wobbly bevel on a Cattaraugus wedge. Superb shaver.

The next 3 pics are different edges . Even with some obvious microchipping all were superb shavers.

The last pic is an edge that shaved equally to the others but simply looks prettier. Pretty sure the last 2 were Pumas so would be a surprise if they were bad shaves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ferroburak

For proper blades(with no chips or warping etc.) using a Norton 1k stone, I find it close to golden ratio, ie. I spend 5x strokes on the bevel setter stone, 3x strokes on the mid-level (4k) stone, and 2x strokes on the finer stones. In this formula total number of strokes is decided by the number of strokes to set the bevel. So if you have to make total 100 strokes for bevel setting, approximately 60 strokes for 4k hone and approximately 40 strokes total for the finer hones works for me.

If your bevel setter stone leaves deep scratches(dmt 1200 plate etc.) more strokes on the higher grit stones will be needed. If you have a chosera 1k or similar bevel setter stone that does not leave deep scratches less strokes on the higher grit stones will be needed.

---

I like the idea of using a ratio, but there have been some eBay purchases that need crazy amounts of 1k strokes. Using a ratio in those cases would be overkill. I can see how it could be a great general rule for a razor just needing an easy reset. After asking here though it seems 40 may be a little north on an 8k as well. Lynn says far less as well as The other big guns here so I'm gonna pull back the throttle.