There is a chap down the road from me with quite a few coticules which he uses for honing, and he thinks there the best thing since sliced bread, anybody have any experience with these?
Thanks.
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There is a chap down the road from me with quite a few coticules which he uses for honing, and he thinks there the best thing since sliced bread, anybody have any experience with these?
Thanks.
I have one and I have used it but I prefer a finer finish - they vary quite widely and my stone is just not as fine as I like.
-john
I have none, but I typed coticle in the search box at the upper right corner of this page and it returned 10 pages of links to forum discussions and articles about coticles.
I can't think of anything better than sliced bread.
Maybe a Beefeater Martini with blue cheese stuffed olives.
My take is that Coticules are cool hones. But they are far from the best thing since sliced bread. Some are better than others, but overall there are better things out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by scs1980
Alot of members here use Coticules, they are pretty popular hones.
I agree - there is this "mystique" that surrounds the coticle but it's a rock that varies greatly and at it's best it's a 12K. I'd say mine is more like an 7-8K and that's from extensive microscopic examination of honed edges. The particle size also varies widely on one single stone - so you get a mixture of deep scratches and fine ones on the bevel. If you like the edge go with it but there are certainly smoother, sharper edges to be had with both other naturals and modern synthetic stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
-john
Out of the half dozen or so I have had I think I had one that could really be consider a great stone. The rest could put a decent edge on a razor but I like others better.
I have a few and I'm convinced that it's best usage is smoothing scratches from a finer synthetic.
That is: I hone till naniwa 12k then few very light strokes on coticule (whatever vein) and it's done. I can hardly get better with jnat and escher on most steels.
In the 1980s I used to go to barber shops and inquire of old pro barbers whether they had any old straight razors they would be willing to sell. This in North NJ, USA. I'd bring a few with me to assure the old fellows I was a bona fide collector and not some nut who wanted to cut throats. I became friends with a few of them and before long my interest extended to their hones. Aside from the barber hones we all are familiar with all of them used coticules with hot lather from their Lather King machines as a vehicle.
I did not learn to hone with the few coticules I bought from those guys, @ $20.00 per copy, because having been shown to use no more than 5 x strokes, weight of the blade, "or you'll lose the edge", I didn't push the envelope further at the time. Fast forward to 2007 when I began learning to hone through SRP. All of the hones those guys had were the 5x2-1/2 with "Made In Belgium" stamped on the side. If they had others I didn't see them, and I assume that must have been the default size sold by the suppliers of said hones.
Back in those days I was told, the barber suppliers had panel trucks go round to the barber shops with all the kit they might need, from strops, razors, coticules, to hair tonic, scissors and what have you. Anyway, after years of honing on many coticules I've come to the conclusion that those fellows wanted a hone that would provide a smooth and 'safe' edge. Not as 'crisp' as what a 12k naniwa superstone, or a 20k Suehiro will provide.
Shaving another man's face, one after another, they wanted an edge that would get the job done with the least risk of leaving a nick. IMHO that is why those particular guys used the coticule, and that is why we find them to be as they are, compared to the aforementioned stones. :shrug:
Coticules are, to me, a hit or miss stone. But they are expensive for what they are when they are of some size and quality.
Someone gave me a deep rock coticule a while ago, unused, for helping them sell off their frictionite collection, and I got another higher dollar coticule from a member on here, disburden. Those are the two that I have that are good. The rest I've gotten rid of.
The deep rock is the size Jimmy mentioned and on the sticker, it says "for the select barber trade". No surprise there, I have no idea what else it would be useful for. My deep rock is actuallly a fairly aggressive stone, and the other one that I bought here is very fine used properly, and can make a bright polish that is keen. They make a fantastic combination.
I keep the deep rock stone because it was a gift, and the other stone because from my experience, I'm afraid it would cost me a lot of money to find another one as fine. I've got no love for the new stones, they make me want to find my japanese stones.
Jimmy is probably right that the best way to use any of the more coarse versions is a few strokes at a time so that they are working the bevel and keeping the edge thin, but not getting all the way to the edge. Generally, that's a good policy with any stone that can't create a good edge due to being a little too coarse.
They are beautiful looking stones, though, I think that's a large part of the draw to them.
What I'm getting at with all of my comments is that they are a stone I'd experiment with after I already had something else that I could rely on. You could have to go through several of them to get one you like, and keep in mind that coticules are like other natural stones, there have been some mined that are not intended for razors, or that are not appropriate.
I experiment with hones and am in no way a Honologist! I have most of the common man made water stones and use them as well as the Coticules. I like the Coticules...as far as the better ( read finer and harder) ones. They have a cult following and some are worth the hype. Out of maybe 15 I retain, I have four that are terrific and 8 that are good and the rest are good in the kitchen. Each one was found in the wild so I have no idea of the technical and miners' description of the hones. It was said above that the stones may vary in grit size along the hone, that is true and also some give the feeling of cutting a LOT faster in one direction of a stroke than the other and they do! My first antique one had a hard surface with three distinct levels of grit along its 7"length.
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5fb94b1c.jpg
Slurry amount and thickness is all important with them and the finish obtained is governed by proper and knowledgeable use of it.
I did not buy a new one, but the recent "select" ones I have tried were good hones!
With a comfortable smooth edge, when right on, a pleasant shave may be obtained. YMMV!
Each one is different and you and the steel will have differing results from another user of the same hone.
If they trip your trigger and you want to play, have fun!
~Richard
PS. As with any hone or combination of hones, the variables are numerous!
Steel, hone, slurry, experience, technique, lubricant, and your face when done
Just to clarify, to avoid any misunderstanding, the barber who told me that was a 70 year old veteran of 50 years of pro barbering. He also told me, "You can overstrop a razor." Well coming to SRP and learning the ropes from the esteemed gentlemen who've shared their knowledge, I found that the old fellow gave me poor advice. SRP members have preved that you cannot 'overstrop' a razor, if you strop correctly, and had I pushed the envelope, and went beyond the 5 weight of the blade strokes, I might have successfully honed my razors back in the 1980s.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
In the old fellow's defense, I must add that he was probably referring to touching up a shave ready edge, not bringing an antique store find to shave ready. He gave me a 5 minute demonstration when I bought a coticule from him. Most of those old guys had long since stopped doing shaves by the 1980s, so he was probably cautious as to advising me to go beyond 5 strokes seeing I was a neophyte honer.
Now I might do 150-200 strokes on a sharp razor to get it where I want it on a good coticule. Maybe a lot less, maybe more. Depends on the razor and the coticule.
The only Coti i have is the aformentioned Barber Shop stone from retired barber. I makes a nice shaving edge, but i've not examined it closely. I use it, but also use synthetics and other naturals.
Natural stones are still being mined worldwide. Coticule is simply the Belgian sort, with a very long history.
I had a hard time learning the coticule to be honest .. prob a lot cause I hadn't really mastered the art of honing any way at the time but after playing exclusively with my coticules I love the edge that come off mine and have my own technique that works for me and all my other stones collect dust ... what once was 1k-4k-8k-12k-zulu is now a 31/1x31/2 coticule to reset a bevel (fast cutter) from there progressions of slurry and x strokes on another ... I enjoy working with 1 or 2 stones much better and I feel a coolness factor while using them do to the fact that it is a natural stone pulled from the earth !!!
the only other edge that I have loved other then my coticule edges has been on a razor I got from JimmyHAD !! that thing still blows my mind !! but it came off of his top secret Escher so I just get as close as I can with my pinkish yellow coticule ...lol( im sure it has more to do with his experience on a stone )
That same edge by Jimmy got me to acquire HAD disease!Quote:
Originally Posted by gooser
Now after 1 Escher, 5 turi's, two Zulus, 3 cotis, one HG and a Goukomoyo 20K (not a natural), the thirst has been quenched! I think!?
My recommendation to the OP is, get a proven stone if you can. Other wise go with proven man made stones for razors. You would save money in the long run.
Cotis are good stones as a base stone but few make the finishing cut IMO.
Double O
This thread has been an interesting read, very straight forward and factual..
I have one Coticule now, I use it as a finisher, light slurry dilute to water and done, it works very well on the older heavier Sheffield razors after a synthetic progression..
I also use it as a set up hone with slightly heavier slurry when honing Kamisori right before a Nakayama finish,, it sets up a nice hazy bevel for the Nakayama to finish off.
A arrow in the quiver, a tool in the box...
Nothing to do with HAD ....... I'm sure ! :rolleyes: ................. :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Hello my name I Glen, and I am a stone dust addict
Now say it with me Jimmy Muhahahaha
The only thing I had a harder time learning was my early stropping - which was more leather shredding.
The coti was something I could get to about an 8k finish, and only twice got in a respectable ballpark w/ the asagi or even a Nani 12k. They are cool rocks. I still use very regularly, but then go to other rocks for more sharpness afterwards.
You mentioned a guy that thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. Most of us get pretty attached to our pet rocks. 'Probably because we learn that particular rock better than others - and low and behold - get better edges with them. There are precious few guys that can make a coti rival the nicer Thuris or Jnats. These guys do exist, and you have a couple of them in the London area (TattooRalphy and Gary Haywood). If you have any trouble getting your Coti do dance, I'd high-tail it to one of these guys for help. There's no substitute for face to face, hands on help.
'Hope you enjoy which ever rock you adopt.
Learning to use a coticule was not so easy for me, but when I had more confidence with the "unicot" and "dilucot" concepts it was more clear for me the value of the coticules. Also the coticule can give a smoother edge, not necessarily a sharper one, then I have to work accurately with a good strop (without paste). If I want go faster I use the chinese water stone after the coticule, but I have to work more with my strop to make it smoother. I like the "unicot" method because I can complete the honing process with just only one stone, the final touch up with the chinese stone is just an option.
A google search for "Coticule honing" will yield a few good videos and a website that is now an archive of all that a lot of good people learned about using a Coticule to sharpen razors. These folks did a lot of honing and other than the idea some there suggest that any Coticule is a winner..not! Some are not finishers and some are just plan butcher knife tools.The information made me a better hone person on any rock!
YMMV but try anyway!
~Richard
The right corticle ROCKS. It is its own animal . I found that some research on the one mine left in Belgium and contacted then directly . Its a unique animal. I find that rotating it 180* gives different results, no two are the same.But when you figure yours out, its a one stop shop hone. You can change the grit with slurry,lack there of,.... or water,or dry... This is a fact if you get one and you learn it, you will not part with it till you die, it will be the next escher, mark my words within the next century. Things to look for ,saw marks, concentration of garnets, amount of white to blue corticle .not a glued version of two pieces. This can be yours call the one company that mines these. Plus the fact that the Romans as in the Roman Legion used this same type of rock to shave their faces and sharpen their weapons. Italians as an ethnicity have a thick coarse hair, an they had to be clean shaven for duty, put that in a blender of facts and choose what works best for you.