Printable View
Hi guys,
2) I have a DE razor which I take with me when travelling.
The truth is that the shaves I get from my DE razor are way
smoother than my straight razor shaves. Is it normal?
I finish my razors on a 12k Naniwa and CROX but I still
don't get smooth shaves like my DE razor gives. Do you believe
there is something I do wrong?
Thanks.
What maybe wrong is that your straight is not properly honed :<0) Of course to get any serious help we will need more info like, who set the bevel and or is it set? How many razors have you honed ? Is this your first touch up ? Have you ever used a pro honed straight?
Touch ups on a hone sound easy enough but seriously, bad stropping can make the whole straight razor experience a pain in the face. Another thing that would help your learning curve is to find a mentor within driving range. Seeing as you don't have your location posted we can't find you so.......
The short answer is "Yes". The longer answer is that it could be any number of things. For instance: Is the razor 'shave ready' (honed by a professional before you finish it)? Do you keep your angle below 30° (a spine width)? Do you apply minimal pressure? Has your stropping undone the honing? Is your lather adequate? Etc.
If the answer to #1 is yes, I'd get it professionally rehoned, then try it right back from them before you touch it to a strop or anything else, except a tissue to get any oil off and running hot water.
(10pups types faster than I do).
Cause I don't think I just type :<0)Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroldg48
I was the same when I began. Now it is the opposite. Get better, smoother results with the straight. Can't go back. It really is something you have to stick with to get good results. A big factor, as already mentioned, is your razor shave ready.
Thank you all for replying.
I've bought a professionally honed razor.
It shaves like the razors I've honed my myself.
I have a vintage Tuckmar that shaves better than
the professionally honed razor.
I've honed many razors. I get sharp edges but not
very face friendly edges.
I set the bevel of my razors.
I use my razor at about a 30 degree angle.
I believe my stropping technique is fine.
Thanks a lot.
You say your stropping technique is "fine" but how do you know? Did you come to that conclusion watching YouTube videos or have you been mentored? As has been stated by 10pups, list your location so that someone close to you could offer to help otherwise we are just guessing and listing possible problems/solutions.
I use the traditional TPT to make sure I strop correctly and efficiently. I put little pressure and my strop has a nice drag. I give my razors thirty strokes minimum. No, I haven't watched any stropping videos on youtube. I've only watched Lynn stropping. I'm afraid I'm not in the US, I'm in Greece. Thanks a lot.
Well something is wrong but it must be a small thing. We have some members in Greece and let's hope they chime in to help. You could search them out in the members list and send them a PM. Right now I would say you could test your straight with a hanging hair test. It should cut your hair as well as your DE blade does. If it does then it is your technique. If it doesn't then it's either your honing and/or stropping. That would help narrow it down a little.
I use Ducks and I shaved a long time off the 8k Norton. When I bought a 12k Nani it made my blades sharper but more harsh. Then I got a Zulu and it smoothed everything back out. There are still way too many factors for us to help online.
It sounds like your doing everything right but that doesn't mean you are. You should be able to get a better shave from your straight than what your describing. Then again maybe your just one of those guys that likes a DE better than a straight :<0)
I am by no means anywhere close to experienced enough to give advice but I have seen and read a few things that made a difference for myself. Stropping is huge. Strop immediately prior to the shave, use linen then leather. Some metals are harder than others and some more responsive to strops than others. I have a vintage solingen that gets right off of 15 laps on linen and 50 laps on latigo and shaves like butter. My hart steel razor won't budge unless I do at least 20-30 laps on linen and 80+ laps on latigo. It's just what it is I suppose but it's noticeable. Just the weight of the blade on a taught strop.
I would say that if someone gets smoother shaves from a DE than a straight, then the difference probably exists in how the straight razor is being manipulated on the face. The De is essentially a mechanism that manages that experience, but with the straight razor it is all up to the operator. Technique improvement may solve the problem. A 30 degree angle is fine in some area and some cases but not in all. Finding the right angle for the right areas is all a matter of time and experience. We mention little or no pressure here all the time, but I don't think that has really been mastered until you can shave under the nose at a 90 degree angle. It sounds horrible, but no pressure means no cuts, no nicks, no irritation. Once you get the feeling of shaving with just the weight of the blade or even less, things will improve. But even that will take a considerable amount of practice.
Are you saying that your DE shave is closer than a straight or more comfortable? You have been a member for some time and as you mention that you use a DE when travelling I assume that you use a straight at other times - therefore I doubt that your problems are due to inexperience. Also I don't think it's unusual to get a close and smooth shave with a DE - so the fact that your straight shave is not as good is down to either sharpness or smoothness. If you are getting a much closer shave with a DE then the problem probably lies with your razor's sharpness. If the problem is one of comfort then you need to look at the edge under magnification and see if there's a problem there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg1
As you are in Europe why not try Neil Miller in the UK via his website 'The Strop Shop'. Explain what your problem is and Neil will soon identify if the blade has a problem edge. If it doesn't then you will know that Neil is certain to send it back with a very good (sharp/smooth) re-hone. It's probably worthwhile paying the price just to establish that benchmark.
I get closer shaves with my straight but smoother shaves with the DE razor.
Thanks a lot.
I shaved off an 8k for a long time. When I moved up to using a Nani 12k I got sharper and more harsh shaves. Like yikes with the after shave. A few weeks later I got my Zulu Grey and all is well. You may need to just add something to your hone finish to smooth things out. What is your hone progression ?
I don't use pyramid honing.
I use the TNT.
1k Norton (if bevel setting is needed) - 4k Norton - 8k Norton - 12k Naniwa - Crox.
ssg1,
I have lots of old straights (way too many) and have honed up a lot of them.
Honing and test shaving a considerable number of razors has improved my ability to get an edge quite sharp and I can now do that in far less time than when I started honing.
I got close shaves but could only get an occasional really smooth shave.
Shaving technique improvements helped a lot but the monumental changes happened when I took a single old razor that cut meat as easily as it cut whiskers, and decided to experiment with it to improve smoothness.
I found that I had been trying too hard to acheive a perfect stropping technique.
I was holding the hanging strop too tightly and was easily able to polish the bevel but stropping like that did very little to remove the harshness I was experiencing during the shave.
I learned that I needed to lighten up a bit on the taughtness of the strop enough to allow about a 3/8" and up to 1/2" maximum drop in the belly of the strop while using very little pressure on the blade.
After realizing this I used this same technique on the Crox treated hanging leather strop followed by the untreated leather strop and..... WOW!!
Now I acheive the smoothness I want by allowing the drop in the strop belly to effectively, but ever so slightly, round off the "meat eater roughness".
I use the loose strop only until smooth happens. Too much loosely held stropping will kill an edge to the point where honing will be required.
I return to holding the strop somewhat tighter to do my daily 50 lap maintenance.
Had I not stuck to using a single problematic meat eater to learn from, and stayed with it until I reached sucess, I am sure that I would still be struggling with SMOOOOTH.
Also, worth noting, is that after the change in smoothness of the edges of my straights was acheived, I found that I could modify my technique and can now hold the edge at an angle to its stroke and not slice meat so easily as before.
Had I followed the advice of many on this forum about starting out with a professionally honed, and truly smooth, razor I could have substantially shortened the learning curve involved with using the straight.
I bought a few "shave ready" razors on Ebay that advertized the use of very expensive equipment only to realize that just because they used very expensive high quality equipment, does not gaurantee a sharp and smooth edge.
Experience counts!
Good luck with your search for SMOOOTH.
All of the other comments surely apply but one other thing to keep an eye on is the number of strokes you are doing with your CrOx. I've seen other guys post that they do 30 laps on a pasted strop. Wow, I would never run my edge that many times over a pasted strop. And I've also seen others be confused about using it on a strop in that they were using it with every stopping and not just for finishing or refreshing. Overuse of a pasted strop can lead to a harsh shave. Same thing with your 12k. It cuts fast. Under the normal run of things, I will only go 15 laps on my 12K. After that you start to run into the possibility of some microchipping that again leads to a harsh shave and a poor edge. Be mindful of the those two finishers as they can get out of hand quickly on you.
Thanks for the information. It's very likely that I gave too many strokes on the Crox and 12k Naniwa.
How can I fix that?
Whenever I have an edge that I'm not happy with, I usually drop down to a 4k stone to strip a little metal away and re-establish a clean edge. Usually 10 laps is enough but you have gauge that as you go. Then I proceed through the upper grits to fine tune it again. Going to a 4k is wiping the chalkboard clean. You might be able to re-establish it on the 8k but I've found that I usually prefer to simply cut to the chase and make my life easier. But what it sounds like is that you may not have any tests in place to judge your work. When that happens, its like driving with a blindfold on. You never really know where you're at. For now, I'd ask a pro to fix it for you and recommend a few rough eBay specials to practice honing on. You need to get a feel for when enough is enough and know what to look for so you know when your work is done. The theory of "a little is good so a lot must be better" does not apply well to honing. Its a matter of pushing the edge to almost its limits but stopping before you roll off the cliff. Spend some time reading up on refreshing. Lynn posted a great vid about it. Specifically, he mentions the use of CrOx and the 12k. If you watch that you will see how few strokes he makes across them to refresh. That will get you going and maintaining but in order to really know where you're at, you need practice with honing if that is the direction you want to go. Otherwise, lean on a pro to get your edge right and just try to maintain it by doing as little as necessary to get it shaving again. PM me is you really need to talk it through some more.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg1
I've already contacted a member and I'll be sending my razor for inspection
and honing if needed.
I use the TNT when honing and I believe I get good indications from it.
Thanks.
Good. I'm sure he will get it straightened out for you. Ask him how best to maintain it. As for the TNT, that's a decent test for establishing a bevel but not only is it destructive to perform it but its limited in its ability to tell you much more. After a bevel is set, you'll need to understand what you want to accomplish with finer grits and know that each step has done its work. It takes a lot of learning to understand it and we are all still learning every time we try. I personally recommend a hand held microscope. I prefer a cheap $4 one that is 200x. I suggest you get one and when your razor comes back, look closely at the edge and bevel. You'll probably see a very clean, straight cutting edge. Depending on how it is finished, the bevel may have some scratches but they won't be deep. Visual inspection is one clue. Physical tests and intuition are others. Good luck and I hope the shaves improve.
+1 on inspecting the edge with magnification - I learned to hone with a microscope and it taught me a lot fast. I realize not everyone has access to a good microscope but there are cheap alternatives - I use a $4 30X loupe for inspecting bevels and my microscope mainly for final inspection after finishing - if there's even one microchip I will step down to remove it - guess I'm anal.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
-john
Hi,
I'd bought a USB 20x-200x microscope in order to start inspecting my edges.
I'm afraid that I don't know to interpret the images.
Could you please send me a few images? It would be really helpful.
I'm interested in a "well honed" image, a "dull edge" image, a "rough edge" image, a "well stropped" image and an "in need of stropping" image.
I'll be very happy if I learn to check my edges with a microscope.
Thanks.
I wish I could. The scope I use is not a USB but a cheap Chinese battery powered scope. No pics. Just inspect your razors edge when it comes back. Look closely at the bevel and the very edge, the cutting edge. Then as you hone, keep it mind that your edge will need to look similar when your done. If you begin to set a bevel on another razor, you will quickly see the difference between the two. And there will be a lot of variation in between.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg1
Here's a thread that answers part of your question: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ed-images.html
I will take some fresh images tomorrow with my scope - they will be 2k, 4k, 8k, post Zulu Grey, post 0.25 diamond on balsa and post stropping...
John
Here are some pics...
Attachment 172734
This is Shapton 1K
Attachment 172735
Shapton 2K
Attachment 172736
Shapton 4K
Attachment 172737
Shapton 8K
Attachment 172738
Zulu Grey
My apologies for the weak images - my microscope camera belongs in a museum. The zulu grey image appears more coarse than when viewed through the eyepieces for some reason... not sure why?
-john
More than likely a trick of perception with the way the light hits it.
It's hard trying to hold a light to get the same lighting each time, focus, release the shutter all at once!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sic4531
-john
That's part of the reason I dislike USB scopes - way too much information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sic4531
You have a hard light source hitting insignificantly shallow scratches (for the most part) and making them look 10 times worse than they are. Move that light source just a fraction and the apparent state of the bevel changes, either for the better or the worse, just by moving the light. It makes the shallow scratches appear even more shallow or, conversely, deeper. Without you having done anything else at all. How are you supposed to draw any meaningful conclusion from that?
To do it properly you need a cradle to hold the razor in the same place so the same bit of bevel is examined, a holder for the light so that it cannot move and a holder for the USB scope so that it stays the same distance from the bit of bevel you are examining. A focus lock and dual, off-axis fixed lighting would be good. The ambient light should either be controlled or eliminated altogether, too. All gets a bit anally retentive though, doesn't it?!
As far as I am concerned, a medium power (around 20x) loupe is more than adequate, and gives a much better, 'cleaner' image - usually due to having superior optics, especially if the loupe is of the triplet design and all glass elements.
TNT up to bevel set (say 1k) followed by TPT and loupe and test shave - saves you obsessing about USB artefacts that don't really matter in the real world.
Each to his own of course, the above is only my opinion. Mind you, it is based on honing many thousands of razors...
Regards,
Neil
I have very little experience honing razors and years of experience sharpening knives. However, in the end no matter what it is, the 20/45x loupe is my favorite tool. My 60-100x microscope can just be annoying. All I use that for is spot checking for microchips and initially making sure a bevel reset has reached the apex of the edge on either side of the bevel. Otherwise, everything else is on the loupe. It's just a matter if know how to manipulate your light source to see what you are looking for.
Agreed with whole-heartedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sic4531
Regards,
Neil
It's not a USB microscope - it's a $25K Olympus clinical microscope with an ancient digital camera. It's simply not designed for this application but I can assure you the optics are quite good - the camera is the weak link and the lighting of course...
-john
Well John, I guess it's like a chain - only as good as its weakest link... all the other things about stands, lights, holders, etc still apply, though.
Regards,
Neil
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grazor
In the beginning, my control shaves with the DE were smoother than with my straights, but ultimately the shaves with my straights became even, or better than with my DE.
But just looking at the little time and effort it takes to get good shaves with a DE, it is easy to understand why DE razors became so popular and overtook straights as preferred shaving instrument.
