Hi guys, I'm afraid I haven't understood what a microbevel is. So, what is a microbevel? How is it created? Why or when is it needed? I did try the google search for related posts but I didn't find the info I'm looking for. Thanks a lot.
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Hi guys, I'm afraid I haven't understood what a microbevel is. So, what is a microbevel? How is it created? Why or when is it needed? I did try the google search for related posts but I didn't find the info I'm looking for. Thanks a lot.
No expert here but basically a micro bevel is a double bevel, think of a hipped roof shape only less blunt. It is created by adding a layer or two of tape to what you already have on when you hit the final hone in your progression. Leave the extra tape on if you go to a pasted balsa strop next. Remove all the tape for normal stropping on a hanging strop and you are done. It is just another way of trying to get a sharp smooth edge on a blade. If you have set a micro bevel the change in angles is not great so a few swipes without the added tape should return it to a normal single bevel. I am sure others will have a better more detailed explanation.
Bob
A Micro bevel as I understand it is when honing you set your first main bevel with say no tape, then once the bevel is set you add a layer of tape which raises the spine slightly, so when you continue hone you create a second (micro bevel) which remains as your final edge,
I believe wedges tend to benifit from this honing method.
This also happens when a razor is refreshed using tape when it may not have been set with it. Not a bad thing usually
Edit Bob types faster
I tend to put a microbevel on my knives but I've yet to put one on a razor. I'm New to razor honing and yet to own a wedge.
Anyway back to your question. A microbevel is a secondary bevel on the edge of a blade.
It is at a steeper angle to the primary bevel.
It's function is to provide more metal behind the cutting edge and in theory should be stronger and last longer than an edge without a microbevel.
It does work well on some types of knives but we are talking about edges with far more metal behind them to begin with, and steeper angles.
Personally I can't see any real benefit on a razor and will just be a pain when it comes to re honing. The exception to this would be the wedge type razors which are more knife like anyway :)
Like I said though I'm not a razor honing expert so my opinion on its use on a razor is pretty much worthless lol
Some usefull info here from a master Razor maker.
Care and Feeding of Zowada Razors
A Micro Bevel is a very small bevel, 1-4 laps on a very fine finish stone, any more than that is a Secondary Bevel. While a Micro bevel is a secondary bevel not all secondary bevels are micro.
As said the idea originally behind a Micro bevel, at least in tool honing is that it could easily be reversed by re honing. They were commonly used in tool sharpening, chisel, plane blades and knife sharpening.
It is also an easy way to test if an increased angle will help a crumbling edge.
They do work exceptionally well with fine stones, and high grit film.
Thank you all.
How can I create a micro bevel on a razor that has been honed from the beginning
with one layer of tape? How can I maintain a micro bevel?
I read a post from a guy who created a micro bevel and got a very smooth edge.
That is what I'm after, a very smooth edge for a pleasurable shave.
"It is created by adding a layer or two of tape to what you already have on when you hit the final hone in your progression" is your answer. If you have one layer of tape on add one or two or if you have no tape on the spine add one or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg1
Bob
As Bob Says,read the Zowada link I Posted.
Yea, the problem with maintaining a “Micro” bevel, is each time you re-hone a “micro bevel you extend the bevel and it becomes a secondary bevel and eventually a full bevel at a steeper angle.
But if that angle works for you, who cares if it is Micro or not?
You should not need to be re-honing that often any way.
I would recommend paste for maintenance.
It is formed like told above.
I find that modern, hard 'chippy' steels sometimes benefit from a micro-bevel - it almost seems as if the traditional angle produces an edge that is too attenuated and weak, prone to micro-chipping, but adding another layer of tape often cures this.
If the steel formulation is up to snuff, then the edge produced traditionally should be plenty good enough - the micro-bevel is just another tool in the arsenal in my opinion. Some makers customarily use a smaller, secondary or micro-bevel, usually because the steel they use is ridiculously hard - over 62 rockwell steels are good candidates.
Regards,
Neil
I've had razors with secondary bevels and I didn't find them to shave any better than razors with single bevels.
I have to agree with Spendur. The only need for one is with a problem edge. And that doesn't always fix it. Just my limited experience. I have used them to see if I can get a better edge but drop back down either way. And this is with wedge type blades only.
Just starting out, I would not concern myself with such extraneous activities as putting a micro bevel on an edge. Your first concern should be getting comfortable with shaving and stropping. Learn the basics, right now you are trying to run without knowing how to walk. It is easy to get caught up in all the little trappings of an activity but don't concern yourself with those just yet. Where are you located? have you found a mentor close to you to help with learning and understanding yet? If not, then I would suggest doing so. Put your location in your profile so that we know where you are.
I have never felt an edge was better with a micro bevel than without it. YMMV and many do it regularly. I find the whole tape thing to be another PITA. I do tape wedges and razors with goldwash and decorative spines but not for shave quality but only to protect them. But I will say it wont hurt, just not worth the time to do IMO.
With the exception of wedges (which to me are shaving knives ;)) I am struggerling to see the benifit. There is so little steel behind the edge anyway that I just can't see a microbevel making any difference to the longevity of the edge, which is a microbevels primary function.
I can see how a microbevel could appear to make a huge difference if the edge its been put on isn't truly set and in that case you are really just masking over a poorly honed blade. Personally I think you are better off getting a smooth shaving edge without the use of a microbevel, after that then by all means give it a try. I could of cause be completely wrong.
Surely though if the microbevel angle works better, are you just not better off honing that angle from the off ?
As I said in my previous post I have, and still do use microbevel s extensively on knives and tools and they are very effective in that context. However there is far more metal on those edges than there is on a razor.
Forgive me for been sceptical but i am struggerling to see the benefit on a razor and just think for the most part all its doing is masking an unset bevel.
Having said that I am new to this whole razor honing game and my mind is open to accepted that I could very well be wrong ;)
I guess it is a case of 'suck it and see' before you dismiss the micro-bevel out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1011
Just as a for instance (Hart is mentioned because it was among the last to exhibit this phenomenon, but TIs and Bohler Steels do it too, as well as others too numerous to mention) I have honed more than a few Hart razors, a fair proportion (though by no means all) began to micro-chip at around the 8k - 10k grits. You cannot see this with the naked eye, but as I make use of a 20x loupe during honing - a lot, I might add - I can see it.
Once you see it forming all along the bevel or in sporadic areas, you are on a hiding to nothing. Go back down the grits to remove it and work up the grits again, and it is still there. Pass the edge over a glass to kill it and any microfin that may be chipping and fall back to a fairly low grit and work your way up - it is still there. Be as light of hand as you can, keep going back to the previous grit hone for a few laps and move up again, and it might go. Strop it, and its back again. That particular metal formation cannot be taken any further. You can sometimes get rid of it by using chrome oxide, but I prefer not to use compounds if I can help it.
However, go right up to a finishing hone then micro-bevel the edge, and the problem often - not always - disappears. Funny thing is, on razors where this is apt to happen and that have come to me without any user-honing (ie, in factory-honed condition) there is often a trace of micro-bevel, ie, it is put on in the factory or by the custom razor maker (eg see Pixels post above).
Do you think they want to go to the extra work? I doubt it. If they do it, they see it as necessary. They are a lot wiser than me, so who am I to say that they are wrong?
I don't think they are wrong, however. I think that not all batches of steel are exactly alike in both formation, crystal formation and temper. It just so happens that every now and again you get these factors slightly aligned in a bad way, a chippy, micro-chip, too-hard metal way.
Suck it and see. Or, hone it and see, if you like. I have honed an awful lot of razors, and I have seen it. I'm not theorizing or repeating what anyone else has told me. Practical experience has led me to this conclusion, and I am positive that I am not the only one, I hope that one day you will join us, and the world will be as... ...aargh - John Lennon deviation! Apologies!
Regards,
Neil
PS: I agree with Bill - it does not make anything better, but it sure can stop things becoming worse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Interesting, if their steel is prone to microchipping at the lower bevel angles I wonder why they don't just put a steeper angle on the bevel to begin with. Maybe it chips regardless of the primary bevel angle and microbevel is used to hide that.....the mysteries of steel :)
Steeper angle equals less keen and less ease removing hair. If you have a razor that can handle an acute angle, then that's where you want to use it. A small change in the bevel angle to remove chipping doesn't usually make too much difference, but you don't want a razor that's 3 or 4 degrees above the norm.
It is MHBHO that if the manufacturer has to "tweak" the edge with a micro bevel on certain razors due to the characteristics of that batch of steel then there is something wrong and the razor should not be sold. How many novice users out there will know to put a micro bevel on it the next time it needs to be honed, for that matter, how many honemeisters will know to do it from the get go? As I see it, putting a micro bevel on a razor is just making an unacceptable adjustment to a razor just to get it out the door. It is rather like GM selling a bunch of "known" defective cars and letting the consumer deal with it down the road.
I Truley do not think Mr Zowada was/is selling defective razors.JMOQuote:
Originally Posted by guitstik
Not knocking any particular maker BUT, if a razor edge performs better(edge retention and chipping is part of performance among others) then whoever makes the blade should tweek the angle to be honed where tape is not necessary. Why should an end user have to do this when it could easily be done in the design? Again its not a big deal to tape an edge, but why should someone "have" to. My .02.
The premise - that nothing other than honing the razor as is - has been my experience for the vast majority of razors that have ever come across my stones. I am no pro honer, though, but I'd bet 75 vintage and two new razors have crossed my stones, and only one had a chipping problem and needed an increase in angle. I gave it away and then the guy who got it told me it settled down and no longer needs it :mad:
That makes sense as additional honing with tape can permanently change the geometry of the blade by a small amount, which may be enough to offset the issues. And some blades that are overheated slightly while buffing or grinding, would have problems at the thinnest part of the blade which is the edge.
So, getting back to the OP's question. Is the general consensus, a microbevel is used when a blade honed at its natural angle is prone to chipping ?
If that is true then IMO regardless of who made the blade there is a fault with the steel and thus the razor. Wheather that is due to the choice of steel or its heat treatment is irrelevant, the fact remains in order to get the razor shaving as a user (customer) would expect you need to do something out of the ordinary to overcome a manufacturing fault.
In this day and age where steels are manufactured with incredible uniformity and heat treating ovens able to be controlled to fractions of a degree. It tells me that either the blade manufacturer has chosen the wrong steel or their heat treatment is wrong / inconsistent and I would expect and decent manufacturer to sort the inherent problem out. I wouldn't expect them to effectively mask the fault and sell the deeefective item as a premium quality product.
I think we need some of the true experts (razormakers) to chime into this thread. JMO
It would certainly be interesting to hear from a manufacturer, especially from one who has the problems mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Out of curiosity I have just finished a shave with my little short blade (which now takes the role of experimenting blade). Half of my face I shaved with the blade as it was (no microbevel). For the other half I set a microbevel using the method described earlier by Euclid440, I verified the existence of the microbevel via a 100x hand held microscope. I could tell no difference what so ever in the shave.
From that, for the time being (I reserve the right to change my mind pending further experience :D) I have drawn the following conclusions.
Barring faults with the blade (ie microchipping with a standard set bevel) there is no difference in terms of the actual shave between a razor with a correctly set and honed standard bevel and one with a microbevel.
With that in mind and the understanding that manufacturers such as Hart are relatively small operations producing a product for what is essentially a small neesh market. I can quite understand why they will pass and sell a razor that in order for it to shave properly requires a microbevel.
Is it a fault? I would say that it most certainly is, the question is really whether or not this fault is acceptable or not. Personally, when you weigh everything up I think it is.
Clearly this defect will only show up at the very final stage of production. At that point the manufacturer has to decide whether to reject the blade or pass it. If they decide to reject every single blade with that fault it will ultimately dive up the cost of the razors that are passed (the losses have to be made up somehow). Now it is entirely possible that the increased cost no longer makes it viable for the company to make razors so they stop making them.
I know I have rambled on a bit but in conclusion I would rather see these companies exist and make new quality razors for us to enjoy. Even if the odd one or two need special treatment to get them shaving how we like.
The alternative is that these companies cease to exist and the only razors available are old vintage ones which sooner or later, the supply will dry up.
Ahhhhhh deep breath aaaaand relax :D
Guitstik -- like GM killing the electric car with the spectacular bombing of the EV1, or the recall of their Spark mini, or their faulty analysis system causing at least 13 deaths and the recall of the Chevrolet Cobalt, or the book 'Unsafe At any Speed' about GMs 1960s Corvair...? :)Quote:
...As I see it, putting a micro bevel on a razor is just making an unacceptable adjustment to a razor just to get it out the door. It is rather like GM selling a bunch of "known" defective cars and letting the consumer deal with it down the road...
That is just the tip of the iceberg, even Ford and other makes are just as bad. It's a fact of life, lets face it.
Regards,
Neil
I dont think anyone is claiming that a micro-bevel is or gives a superior shave on razors with good enough steel - at least, I'm not and the posts don't seem to be - the non-anecdotal ones, anyway.
With problem steel it is another matter, at least most of us are agreed on that. And it is not just niche makers like Hart that do or have done it.
As for 'true experts - razormakers - chiming in" - why? There are a myriad of users compared to makers for one, users are still using and evaluating razors made by long dead razormakers for two, and thirdly a modern maker has a vested interest and may be assumed in legal parlance to be compromised by virtue of a biased opinion.
One has to explore all the avenues and contrary opinions, otherwise we would be living in a fascist dictatorship.
Regards,
Neil
What I got a kick out of was this post by Tim Zowada 4 years ago ....... after many threads, that went for pages and pages, of guys opining on the 'double bevel'.
Then, updating, Tim said, "Someday I'll update the web page to show just what I'm doing. In short, I don't really create a double bevel. I use extra tape, and an Escher, to very carefully knock of the teeth/serrations off the edge. I actually strive to avoid a double bevel." This was somewhat confusing at the time, considering everything that had been posted before he 'clarified' things. :thinking:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post709701
Myself I bought two Zowada Damascus razors, one from Classic, and another off of the bay. The one from Classic appeared to have a double bevel and shaved well. The one from the bay had a couple of chips in the bevel and I honed them out to a normal single bevel. It too shaved well. Both since sold, so don't ask. :)
Doh...!Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Wait a minute though! I think the reason why Tim's explanation is so enigmatic and strange is that Tim is not really speaking american english - in fact, he seems to be striving to avoid speaking in american english and has chosen double dutch as his means of expression on this occasion.
A colaborration between Tim, Edward Lear and Spike Milligan would have proved most entertaining to the aficionado of true nonsense...
Mid you, Donald Rumsfeld could probably give them all a run for their money if he felt so inclined:
...as we know, there are known single bevels; these are bevels that we know that we know. We also know there are known razor steel unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know about the alloys used in razor making. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know, like the use of double bevels with known razor steel unknowns...
I hope that clears the matter up for us all.
Regards,
Neil
The other use of the micro bevel or double bevel is where a razor has been honed on an aggressive stone, low grit (sub 1K), Diamond hone or with excessive pressure, as in a bread-knifing or on customs where edges are produced with low agressive sanding belts and finished on hones.
When these things are done, chipping can occur, as steel has a memory and the deep stria can weaken the edge. Which is why some of these problems can go away, after solid steel is reached down the road.
The micro or double bevel is just another tool, not to make a razor shave better, but just to make a razor shave, regardless of the cause. Just because a razor is chippy does not mean it is defective, there may be any of a number of reasons of which include the user.
Nie mam pojęcia, co mówisz. Kiedy mam czas, będę odpowiadać, aby wyjaśnić moje oświadczenie! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
There is a very slight difference in creating a Micro bevel and honing a full bevel at essentially the same angle
ie:
Honing with 1 layer of tape and then creating a micro bevel with a second layer on the last high grit stone is not quite the same as honing with 2 layers of tape from start to finish... I once thought this, but have found it not to be quite right, close but not quite..
Anyway this thread has taken some very interesting twists..
Again, someone has missed the point:
Nie mam pojęcia, co mówisz. Kiedy mam czas, będę odpowiadać, aby wyjaśnić moje oświadczenie!
See what I mean? :chapeau
I have no desire to hijack this thread. So, I will start a new one.
Apparently, there is some confusion relating to the quote above. I will attempt to clarify why and how I tweak my edges, using tape. I will do my best to keep the "double dutch" and Polish to a minimum!
Please remember, we're just discussing razors. This is not life, death, family, friendships... There are many, many ways to "skin" the razor sharpening "cat".
Ja czekam na ten dzień! Dzięki, Tim!
...don't ask me, ask google translate...
Regards,
Neil
PS: And keep your mitts off my cat, it's not her fault she likes sharpening razors... :)
Here you go:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...edge-tape.html
It was a nice change of pace to do the microscope work. I hope it helps explain what I was trying to say above.
Now, it's back to the shop, to make steel dust...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller