Razor won't take an edge.

My most recent restore was a Frederick Reynolds 6/8 full hollow. Things were going well until last night when I went to hone. The bevel set went without a hitch. 4000/8000 went as planned and when I went to test to see if it could pop hairs, it seemed to grab and tug a bit. I spent a bit more time on the 8000 then moved to 12000. After some time on the 12000 it was still tugging a bit. I moved to canvas then leather strop. At this point the razor was still tugging.

Que the frustration!

square one, 1200 grit, set bevel. Grips fingernail, sticky feeling across thumb. Move on to norton 4000/8000. Same result as before, still tugging. Progress to 12,000, strop canvas then leather. No go.

At a loss at this point. Return to 12,000 naniwa. Then 150 on lops on canvas followed by 200 on leather. Still tugging.

At this point I'm at a loss. I'm not going to send out a restore unless it has a scarry sharp edge.

For the record I use Lynn's circle honing method. Just before this razor I had honed a Boker, George Wosterholm and a Wade & Butcher. All the razors were done on the same day, but I'm only having the problem with the Frederick Reynolds.

My theory at this point is either there is a huge burr on the blade that keeps rolling over, or there's some issue with the hear treating.

Any ideas/help would be greatly appreciated.

-Andrew.

Some razors get odd chips on synthetic finishers. I had a fred reynolds razor that would absolutely not tolerate anything at a normal angle other than a coticule, and the shave wasn't very satisfying with one. Transfer to a shapton pro 15k, a sigma power 13k and it would chip out - you could literally see the tiny chipping if you had the right light (and it would've shown up easily in a microscope).

steeper bevel might help overcome it. At the point where it was fine before, add tape afterwards and do 10 light strokes each on the next finer steps and then test shave it after leather only.

I gave my razor away to a newbie to practice on after warning him about the chipping. I don't know what he's using, but he has no problem with it like I did. It is one of only two razors I ever got that refused to take a nice edge. the other one is japanese and I still haven't figured it out. It'll get the circular file soon.

If a razor is straight, it should never really be that hard to come up with a good edge.

The bevel is not set and you keep going on to refining before it is.

The small chips sounds very familiar. I thought it was burr, by the looks, but without a microscope I can't tell for sure. I'll try to tape the spine.

No the bevel is definately set before I move on. If this was my first razor I wouldn't be so sure. I'm 100% it isn't the bevel. It feels like the edge refuses to polish out.

If your looking down the edge and see what looks like a shiny spot on it you just have more work to get the 2 sides of the bevel to meet. To feel a burr is the same as with a knife. You will feel it on one side and not the other. You should get a loupe. They are like 3 bucks at harbor freight or online. Then you can see chips and grit patterns easy. If your finding chips it may be the blade and not the stone your using. Pits act like chips at the edge. You really need a closer look at what your doing to tell :<0)

I am not the know it all of honing but I have been going through some of the same issues as you describe. I have a few problem hone jobs with varying types of problems. Sometimes I am sure the bevel is set but guess what ? More work and a closer look with a different perspective and walla,,,there is the problem.

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Originally Posted by SuperFresh642

The small chips sounds very familiar. I thought it was burr, by the looks, but without a microscope I can't tell for sure. I'll try to tape the spine.

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It won't be a burr. It'll be little bits of edge damage. You'd get a burr on a really fine stone only if the razor was too soft. you can do two things:
1) change the abrasive type to something gentler (like a coticule)
2) add tape to increase the angle slightly. The edge might tolerate the synthetics if it's given another degree or two on each side. Do the other work (if you're sure it's not chipping out) with no tape if you're already doing it that way. This is out of laziness - so you can experiment with a few strokes before the stones can do much damage. You'll quickly get a good edge with this if the razor will hold up at a given angle.

When all is said and done, if the razor sharpens well with tape, you can do the whole routine with tape if microbevels turn you off.

I don't strop on anything but plain leather unless I'm using abrasives. I've seen linen and canvas damage edges coming off my 12K Naniwa SS. When I did use linen or canvas, it was 10 to 20 laps maximum. I think 150 laps on canvas is a pretty harsh treatment for an edge that requires no more than smoothing. You might try going to leather only and see if that maintains the edge more gently.

If you're seeing linen and canvas damaging an edge something is very wrong with that picture cause that should not be happening. Maybe the strop is contaminated or the stropping technique with it is off.

Did this guy ever figure it out? I have a couple razors here that will get pretty sharp, but won't get that last tiny bit sharp that gives a comfy shave. Its a dovo and vintage restore, everything goes great but they juuuuust wont' finish out nicely. I tried one of my many others razors and had no issue, great edge with little effort. I am going to try tape... having a high powered microscope is something I must save up for!

I think there are some razors out there, current production or vintage that were never very good to began with! Just my thoughts.

You don't need a high powered microscope. Radio shack sell a nice little dandy of a scope for less than 15 bucks.

oh I knoooow everytime I go to a local radio shack they don't have it in stock, then I end up forgetting all about ordering one until i'm honing again. Its a terrible cycle.
I want to REALLY see chips though, on a computer screen. I have a cheapie USB chinese scope but its impossible to set it up correctly.

Try finding the radio shack scope online it may be easier. I would love to see this blade and help to solve your problem. What stone are you finishing on and are you sure you have a correct bevel to start with.

One of the things that I find with restored blades it that the edge damage goes below the surface and shows up as chips as you hone. As soon as you get chips, kill the edge lightly and start over. A loupe is an important tool for me when it comes to honing. They are pretty inexpensive and are everywhere. I am currently using a 30x

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Originally Posted by SuperFresh642

square one, 1200 grit, set bevel. Grips fingernail, sticky feeling across thumb. Move on to norton 4000/8000. Same result as before, still tugging. Progress to 12,000, strop canvas then leather. No go.

At a loss at this point. Return to 12,000 naniwa. Then 150 on lops on canvas followed by 200 on leather. Still tugging.

At this point I'm at a loss. I'm not going to send out a restore unless it has a scarry sharp edge.

For the record I use Lynn's circle honing method. Just before this razor I had honed a Boker, George Wosterholm and a Wade & Butcher. All the razors were done on the same day, but I'm only having the problem with the Frederick Reynolds.

My theory at this point is either there is a huge burr on the blade that keeps rolling over, or there's some issue with the hear treating.

Any ideas/help would be greatly appreciated.

-Andrew.

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Lynn's circles or straight back and forth laps make no never mind as far as a keen edge goes, circles only shorten the time it takes to set the bevel.

If the bevel is properly set on a 1K hone, you should be able to shave with it... perhaps not comfortably, but it should be shaving.

If you are having problems with getting the edge up to snuff and you think it needs more time on X hone, drop at least one more grit size down... it needs more honing than you think, and don't ask me how I know that....<sigh>

20 to 30 laps on plain leather should be all that is needed for stropping..... I *never* use linen on a freshly honed razor, I just wipe the blade dry with a cotton terry towel, then 20 to 30 laps on my best leather strop and that's it. Stropping on linen is fine *after* a shave, to make sure the edge is completely dry, but I find linen to do more damage than good when dealing with a freshly honed edge.

As this is a Frederick Reynolds and thus a vintage razor, we can assume the heat treatment is fine (assuming no incorrect power sanding was done during restoration) or the razor would have never made it to this century, having been tossed on the refuse pile decades ago, by some previous owner. If the razor was power sanded, it is possible for the temper to have been lost... If any part of the edge turned blue during sanding with a power sander... it's toast.

Good magnification will let you see if there is chipping or pitting in the edge... Sometimes steel gets downright punky with pits and can look fine to the naked eye, but when you look closely with a 30x loupe... you can see the problems. I had one such razor and the bevel was nice and shiny, but when I looked with a loupe, the bevel looked like crumbling feta cheese! Fortunately, I got past the pitting and the edge came around, but only after removing all the bad steel.

A large burr on a razor is visible to the naked eye in bright light. Unless you really used a lot of pressure, it's highly unlikely to have happened. Faint burrs will fold over after a few strokes in shaving, the razor starts off nice and sharp and within a few strokes of shaving it becomes dull and hard to shave with.

Full hollow blades can sometimes be a bit cantankerous, too much pressure or torque on the hones can cause the blade to flex... this results in the edge coming off the hone, making the bevel wider and never honing the actual edge. I've only had this problem with one razor which was a full bellied hollow and I had to use butterfly light strokes or it would not come around. This happened to be a Boker and I don't think the old F.R. razors are that thin... but if you are used to more wedge like blades, a full hollow could be difficult to deal with and in particular if it has had a lot of sanding done to it.

It's hard to troubleshoot your problem without seeing the razor.... the above are just some thoughts I had about problems I have run into.

Regards

Christian

Guys, the OP has not been online here since July 14, 2016 - the date of his last post.

Actually it was July 2014, but glytch sort of took up the banner with a similar question.

Cool well... I guess you guys answered my semi question/observation which was:
some straights just aren't very good shavers/don't take quite the edge that they should. These couple razors get very sharp, to the point of some tree topping and such, they just won't get that last little bit sharp to where it makes ya happy. The shave comes out a bit rough. Tried honing them start to finish probably a dozen times with all my hones, however when I bust out some of my other razors, there are no problems what so ever. They get darn sharp. These blades just won't come around.

One of the razors is a brand name that I am not allowed to mention on here, so I see no reason why that particular razor could just be bad. The other one is a old pitted out vintage restore. I had it shaving once well many honings back, but the edge never stood up very long. 2 shaves and it was ready for a full refresh. The Dovo half hollow is kinda the same thing, you can sometimes get it there, but the edge dies immediately down to an un comfortable shave. Maybe I am just really picky?

Razors are not all the same. Their grind, steel, heat treat, and tempering all affect how well they shave, no matter the quality of the honing.

I have two 4/8 vintage straights that I recently bought from one of the bigger vendors. I like their restore work but not a fan of their "shave ready" edges. Normally a few quick passes on the coticule gets me the edge I am used to with all of my straights. But no matter what I do I cannot get a good edge on one of them. The other is just fine, easy to hone. I am definately a beginner, I just wanted to disclose that. I use a Belgium Blue and Coticule only for my straights. I bevel set on the blue and hone on the coticule.This is the first time I am thinking I need a lower grit stone for setting a bevel. I have been shaving with straights for about 5 years and have never needed to send a blade out for professional honing so I think I am doing pretty good.I also bought a dull vintage on Ebay and honed it to perfection. I also DE shave, so I know how a good shave is with the proper edge. I am using a 20x loupe and it looks just fine down the whole edge, no pits or chips. After I write this I am going to try again with the idea that maybe the blade is flexing.

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Originally Posted by 74d34h

I have two 4/8 vintage straights that I recently bought from one of the bigger vendors. I like their restore work but not a fan of their "shave ready" edges. Normally a few quick passes on the coticule gets me the edge I am used to with all of my straights. But no matter what I do I cannot get a good edge on one of them. The other is just fine, easy to hone. I am definately a beginner, I just wanted to disclose that. I use a Belgium Blue and Coticule only for my straights. I bevel set on the blue and hone on the coticule.This is the first time I am thinking I need a lower grit stone for setting a bevel. I have been shaving with straights for about 5 years and have never needed to send a blade out for professional honing so I think I am doing pretty good.I also bought a dull vintage on Ebay and honed it to perfection. I also DE shave, so I know how a good shave is with the proper edge. I am using a 20x loupe and it looks just fine down the whole edge, no pits or chips. After I write this I am going to try again with the idea that maybe the blade is flexing.

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The thing that stuck out to me was the 4/8's size. I now have all of my razors sharp but for a while I was able to hone everything well except for the 4/8's razors.

I posted for help as well. Even though there should be no difference in honing due to the width of the blade oftentimes there is a difference due to not having the blade perfectly flat on the hone.

There is less room for error with such a small blade. It's the same with stropping. You may not be polishing the edge or you may be folding the edge over.

I just stuck with it and eventually got them all sharp. I doubt if you need to go down in grit. I also don't particularly enjoy shaving with a 4/8's so it becomes a moot point for me as well but I did want to get everything sharp (and I did).

I have 3 4/8 shavers now and one nice 4/8 Puma I found on Ebay a few years back that was $20 and in great shape. I honed that up and its actually one of my top shavers. I do not like how little cream the 4/8 hold when I am shaving but I love the 4/8 around my nose and chin for that bbs shave. I struggle with the 7/8 around my nose. I have 3 5/8 that seem to be my goto blades.

I just ordered a 30x loupe because why not they are cheap on amazon and my eyes are not what they used to be. I am going to work on this blade again. What I am experiencing is I feel like the blade is not catching much friction on the stone. I am really thinking I am getting a flex or lift of the blade off the stone. This is my only straight that I can not get a good shave with.

I also have some nice wool, and canvass strops with black, red and green crayons. I have the diamond spray for the wool. For my leather I use a 3" horsehide from SRP that is awesome. I will get this blade shave ready.

Many disagree with Dr. matt on this. But having a razor with a proper set "bevel" not the edge makes a world of different. Bevel meaning the entire blade from spine to edge sits flat on the stone without any rock or wobble. Not only does it make honing easier, but the edges come out supreme.
I know this cuz I sent 2 razors to matt to have him fix the geometry on, and holy cow, those razors are outa control smooth. He is really good at doing very little grinding to set them up, but that does not mean you HAVE to have a perfectly set bevel to get a good shave, it just helps tremendously.
BTW: I've had blades from whippeddog, I had one from SRD and also 2 from Dr matt in my day. Dr Matt's edges are by far the best, that guy really has a knack for this so if your looking for a honing I can't recommend him enough, so fast too. he ships out like the next day!

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Originally Posted by glytch5

Many disagree with Dr. matt on this. But having a razor with a proper set "bevel" not the edge makes a world of different. Bevel meaning the entire blade from spine to edge sits flat on the stone without any rock or wobble. Not only does it make honing easier, but the edges come out supreme.
I know this cuz I sent 2 razors to matt to have him fix the geometry on, and holy cow, those razors are outa control smooth. He is really good at doing very little grinding to set them up, but that does not mean you HAVE to have a perfectly set bevel to get a good shave, it just helps tremendously.
BTW: I've had blades from whippeddog, I had one from SRD and also 2 from Dr matt in my day. Dr Matt's edges are by far the best, that guy really has a knack for this so if your looking for a honing I can't recommend him enough, so fast too. he ships out like the next day!

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Thanks! I actually went down to my man cave and fired up my UFO LED lighting system, and ran a bevel set. No change. I took out the loop and wouldn't you know it from the halfway point to the end the blade was rough! It looked like shavings. I played with setting a bevel for 15 minutes and could not get it on the Belgium Blue. Frustrated I took the Guangxi stone mixed up a slurry with the dmt plate and no joke, smoothed out a bevel. I lapped the blue before also so thats not it. I took off the tape from the spine and ran it on the Coticule and it is all perfect. After reading your last post maybe it is the geometry of the blade. The blade is perfect and mirror smooth all the way down now. I will shave with it in the morning. :shrug:

I've seen DrMatt's video with the razor tapping test. I can't remember which razor it was, but I've got one somewhere that I corrected.

It does help, but in the long run as I get better at honing I find it easier to contour my stroke to the razor, rather than contouring the razor to fit my stroke.

This also depends on the razor in question. If it's a cheap hardware store razor, or something someone else already whipped half to death that I'm trying to bring back into shaving form, might as well go the extra mile and rework some geometry while I'm at it.

A Wade & Butcher or similarly nice collectible? I'd probably just polish it up and let the geometry stay as-is. Might even take to honing with a layer of tape to protect the spine.

Personally, I just tape the spine and hone the way the razor wants to be honed. By that I mean I adjust the type of stroke I use to the razor. Most of my razors have some sort of warp/twist to them. I just want the two bevels to meet all along the edge. When that happens I consider the bevel as being set. The bevel itself may be a nice thin even one or a wavy one at that point. To me it matters not what the bevel looks like. It is the edge that shaves not the bevel. Seems to work without grinding on the spine but grinding on the spine is another method.

Bob

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Originally Posted by 74d34h

Thanks! I actually went down to my man cave and fired up my UFO LED lighting system, and ran a bevel set. No change. I took out the loop and wouldn't you know it from the halfway point to the end the blade was rough! It looked like shavings. I played with setting a bevel for 15 minutes and could not get it on the Belgium Blue. Frustrated I took the Guangxi stone mixed up a slurry with the dmt plate and no joke, smoothed out a bevel. I lapped the blue before also so thats not it. I took off the tape from the spine and ran it on the Coticule and it is all perfect. After reading your last post maybe it is the geometry of the blade. The blade is perfect and mirror smooth all the way down now. I will shave with it in the morning. :shrug:

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Great to read your razor is now ready for the job. I just like to mention that a BBW is not really a bevel setter. Way too slow. For setting bevels you better take a synthetic hone. Unless you have plenty elbow grease.

What would you suggest for a stone? Would I progress off another stone to the blue, then the coticule?

I used to use a Shapton 1.5K then 5K and then straight to the coticule.

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Originally Posted by 74d34h

What would you suggest for a stone? Would I progress off another stone to the blue, then the coticule?

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The coticule can do anything the blue would, and better if you're proficient with slulrry. IMO anyway. I'm kinda surprised you were able to get it set with the C12K, which tells me the previous work on the BBW/coticule must've had it very, very close.

I'm kind of in league with Kees. A 1K synthetic bevel setter is perhaps the best place to start if the issue is more than you're willing to deal with on the coticule. Shapton/Naniwa/Norton/King in no particular order will get the job done. After that you can bounce to the BBW or slurry up the coticule and dilute your way up to a finished edge. Or do like Kees and get a synthetic 4/5/6 K and shift from there to the coticule. Whatever method suits you best.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

The coticule can do anything the blue would, and better if you're proficient with slulrry. IMO anyway. I'm kinda surprised you were able to get it set with the C12K, which tells me the previous work on the BBW/coticule must've had it very, very close.

I'm kind of in league with Kees. A 1K synthetic bevel setter is perhaps the best place to start if the issue is more than you're willing to deal with on the coticule. Shapton/Naniwa/Norton/King in no particular order will get the job done. After that you can bounce to the BBW or slurry up the coticule and dilute your way up to a finished edge. Or do like Kees and get a synthetic 4/5/6 K and shift from there to the coticule. Whatever method suits you best.

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Thank you! I enjoy honing as much as I do shaving. I have more time these days and I find its very relaxin. Shaving has exploded into an expensive hobby of mine. I am also always trying to improve my skills. I ordered a Naniwa 1k stone. I will work off that and move to the bbw then onto the coticule.

A Thurigan can't be too far behind. :)

Which Naniwa 1k did you order?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Which Naniwa 1k did you order?

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Naniwa Blue Super Stone in Stand S1000 stone

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

A Thurigan can't be too far behind. :)

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Hasn't anyone ever told you not to feed the Hone Acquisition Disease...? :nono:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Hasn't anyone ever told you not to feed the Hone Acquisition Disease...? :nono:

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I"m an enabler. I don't even have a Coticule or Thurigan myself. :)

Well I just kind of went to war on one of my razors. Could not get the last half inch of the blade on the end sharp. The rest of the blade was fine tpt sharp. To make a long story short I ended up having to literally bring down the spine near the end of the razor on both sides to get it sharp. I guess when these razors sometimes only spend their life getting sharpened on a strop, alignment issues start to develop. I wish I had taken a picture of how my shapton 1k glass turned black, two times, while I was at war with it. It's fine now but it took the most amount of work of any razor I have ever sharpened. It seems like were always learning something new when it comes to these damn things.:jedi:

That is a good example of a time to tape the edge and flatten out the spine! No sense in eating up your edge if the razor is that far out of whack.

I have quite a few razors that are similar to that. razors are a very in-perfect tool. Some deal with it better than others. It drives me absolutely nuts! But hey, its a Tool first so don't worry if it looks bad now.

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Originally Posted by glytch5

That is a good example of a time to tape the edge and flatten out the spine! No sense in eating up your edge if the razor is that far out of whack.

I have quite a few razors that are similar to that. razors are a very in-perfect tool. Some deal with it better than others. It drives me absolutely nuts! But hey, its a Tool first so don't worry if it looks bad now.

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I started out with tape because it looked new, the spine. I've decided to start using tape on razors when they are in new or close to new condition, I know, I'm a late bloomer. After realizing that it was not going to be possible to get the bevel to go completely across the blade evenly, is when the tape had to come off. I put around 600 passes on both sides at almost the highest pressure I could exert onto the spine while making those passes.