Can't get the edge to a point

Hi guys, this is my first post and I am hoping some of you guys can help me out with some advice. I have been using a straight for almost a year now and have a decent grasp of honing. I was able to take a vintage Boker from not cutting a single hair to shaving like butter. I recently acquired a few wade and butchers and a Boker from ebay. The problem is that two of the Wade and Butchers are dull. And I mean that the edge doesn't come to a sharp point, it is noticeably rounded. I tried to get one to a sharp point, but I was working on it for hours to no avail, it was able to pass the tnt, but it still would not cut any hair on my arm. I was hoping some of you guys could give me some tips and ideas on what to do. I have thought about sending it out, but I tend to be one of those guys that wants to do it himself and learn in the process. I have a combo course/fine india stone, a combo soft/hard ark, and a surgical black ark. Thanks for any information.

any pics of the problems blades?
what is your process for honing so far with these hones
I don't have any of the hones you are using so not sure of the problem myself.
but if is won't shave hair the bevel is not set properly
it could be a coaurse stone leaving the TNT feeling grippy but the bevel not set fully, I am guessing at this stage.
Others with your stones should be able to help more hopefully

I really think that you should send at least one out to be honed by a pro because I don't think you know what sharp is if you are trying to shave with "butter". Seriously, honing is the least of your concerns until you know what a truly honed razor shaves like, then you may have something to compare to. Another thing, HOW are you honing? How did you learn? What is your point of reference? To many variable to deal with in one huge leap. There are a ton of members in the kali area that would be willing to mentor you in all areas of straight razor kung fu so put your exact location in your profile and see who harkens to the call.

I also have a combo stone about 12 in long and course and fine India. I had trouble with it on most everything. I went to the naniwa stones. I then began to hone. My advice is to watch Lynn Abrams videos on honing. Lynn and others here on the place have excellent instructions on honing and they show it well in the video's. My problem with the india stones was keeping them clean. The Naniwa stones I use are water stones and work quite well anyway learning is part of the fun.

I did purchase a dovo bismark 6/8 and it was honed by lynn. I do know what a razor should be like as I don't think it gets much better than that. I'm honing based off what I have read from these threads, to set the bevel i"m doing some circles on the soft ark and finish with some x strokes. Then move on to my hard with some x stokes and finish on my black ark. Then strop. Not saying I know it all, but I think for the stage i'm at I can get a comfortable shave. Thanks for the location change tip, should have realized that it would be better with city in stead of state. And you are right it is a big leap, I might have bitten off more than I can chew

I don't use the stones you own but would say to keep on your lowest grit stone until the blade will cleanly cut arm hairs before even considering to move up your honing progression. I just don't think you have your bevel set in the first place. Some really dull blades just take longer to get the bevel set.

Bob

The course india is a very low grit stone. I think its supposed to be around 320 grit, and it eats at metal. I just dont want to use it too much without the right tips. otherwise I could be doing more bad than good. For my other Boker that I got to shave ready, the lowest I went was to my soft ark. So I haven't really used the course india stone up until now. I'm wondering if taping the edge will prevent some serious spine wear from this stone, it already has some, but this stone could add a lot more real quick. I'll see if I can find my camera to get some pictures up.

Heres a picture, its hard to tell about the edge, but its the best i could do.
Attachment 174983

I would stay away from the India stone altogether as it is to coarse of a grit and should only be used with great experience on... nothing really. That stone is good for farm implements and rusted hulks of iron that may have been hunting knives at one time. Stay with the soft Ark for bevel setting and then move up to the harder stones only after you can cut hair with it. A Washita stone wold be a good complement to the Arks. Remember, when you watch the videos, most people are using synthetic stones that have a standard grit rating and will slurry much differently then the Arks will.

thanks for the tip! I figured it might be too aggressive. I saw a video that gssixgun did in restoring a blade that he breadknifed. That is not what I am going to do, but he did at one point have a dull edge that he could run across his palm. similar to what I have. He then honed with the spine lifted to cut the flat edge into a sharper point. After that he set the bevel and so on. would that be worth a try on the soft ark. or should i just use a couple layers of tape and keep working at it till the bevel is set?

I said I was not familiar with the stones you were using and just assumed you were using the equivalent of a 1K Nani for setting a bevel. I should not have assumed and by all means step away from the 320 grit stone for a basic bevel set. Sorry.

Bob

Glen is an expert at honing razors and has done 1000's of them over the years and with that comes the experience to do it that way. I don't use tape but if you want to just use one layer and replace it as necessary.

Thanks for all the advice! Honestly, its really appreciated. I'm going steer clear of the course india stone and stick to my soft ark. I know they tend to be slower than most synthetics so I know to not expect much change in a couple minutes. I will get to honing and see what I can do. Another quick question, the other razor had no spine wear and no bevel. Could this be because it was not used or do you think that the previous owner had done something to make it this way? I am in the process of setting the bevel with my soft ark and I am starting to get it to be able to cut hair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JS1031

Thanks for all the advice! Honestly, its really appreciated. I'm going steer clear of the course india stone and stick to my soft ark. I know they tend to be slower than most synthetics so I know to not expect much change in a couple minutes. I will get to honing and see what I can do. Another quick question, the other razor had no spine wear and no bevel. Could this be because it was not used or do you think that the previous owner had done something to make it this way? I am in the process of setting the bevel with my soft ark and I am starting to get it to be able to cut hair.

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Honestly, there really isn't any way to know even if you posted a picture of it. There are to many reasons why a razor would be in that condition and I would only be guessing at it. We do have a few members here that could come up with an answer for you so go ahead and post a before picture if you have one.

Its a little too late, i was working on this one during these posts when I set the other one aside.. I already set a bevel on it. There was nothing wrong with this blade at all, I was just curious as I haven't seen a blade with no bevel on it.

If it has no bevel or spine wear it may be an unused razor.
I got one on EBay some time ago. It was described as MIB and it wasn't until I got it that I realised that it should have been NIB (New In Box).

Alright guys, just an update. I stuck with the soft ark and worked on the edge for a while. It seemed to put a tiny/thin bevel on the edge, still not cutting hair though. I tried the permanent marker test and it seems that when I lay the razor flat on the stone it doesn't hit the edge of the blade. It seems to hit a bit higher. To remove the marker I need to lift the spine about 5-10 degrees off the stone. Any ideas on what my next move should be?

It may be that someone has done a bevel set with a large amount of tape if there is clearance between the edge and the stone, either that or... When was the last time you lapped the stone? Before I start honing a razor I lay it on a flat piece of glass or a granite slab that I use for wet/dry lapping. The reason I do that is to get an idea of what I will have to deal with on a stone, if the razor has a problem I want to know ahead of time. I always lap my hones prior to doing any razor work to ensure that I have as flat a work surface as I can get but I never use the hone as a "straight edge" for the razor, that is what the glass is for.

Could you post a couple of photos of the blade including a head on one of the blade to see what the grind is like?

Bob

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html

Read rule #1...

1. Learn to walk away, if a razor has you stumped, learn to walk away, set that razor aside, and move to the next one, or get up and go do something else.. Sitting there Grinding on a razor normally achieves nothing good.. I have read posts where people are putting in more then 1 hour on one hone, that is just too long...

Now after grinding on that thing for hours you have finally decided to seek help, after you wiped away all the clues that might have been on the razor to help us help you.. Now we have an entirely new set of issues that you have introduced to the spine and edge...

Hint #1 - Set this razor aside until you have much more experience

Hint #2 because you won't listen to #1 :) Put 3 layers of tape on it and do the MM test and see what happens, that will help mask the spine wear at least

Simple fact, now you have to learn to hone around the errors, or what we call "Honing Gymnastics"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html

Read rule #1...

1. Learn to walk away, if a razor has you stumped, learn to walk away, set that razor aside, and move to the next one, or get up and go do something else.. Sitting there Grinding on a razor normally achieves nothing good.. I have read posts where people are putting in more then 1 hour on one hone, that is just too long...

Now after grinding on that thing for hours you have finally decided to seek help, after you wiped away all the clues that might have been on the razor to help us help you.. Now we have an entirely new set of issues that you have introduced to the spine and edge...

Hint #1 - Set this razor aside until you have much more experience

Hint #2 because you won't listen to #1 :) Put 3 layers of tape on it and do the MM test and see what happens, that will help mask the spine wear at least

Simple fact, now you have to learn to hone around the errors, or what we call "Honing Gymnastics"

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Great advice. I get up and walk a lot, that's how I get my exercise. There are several rasors in my stash right now that I am waiting to go back to but until I am ready I move on to another razor. It sounds like I give up on a lot of razors but to be honest, the troubled ones are fewer and farther between now.

Listen to the man.

Stop… load up your stones and razors and bring them to the So. Cal Summer meet, Sunday, August 17, 2014.

Seriously, you are doing irreparable damage to what may be mint razors. While it may be possible to hone a razor with your stones, you need to learn how to use them and there are much better alternatives for the novice.

And use tape so you at least do not ruin the spine and the edge.

The first thing is learning how to set a bevel and know when the bevel is set. Until the bevel is set nothing else matters.

Welcome to the forum. As you have found… it is not as easy as it looks, hands on coaching will dramatically increase your learning curve. Sounds like you may have some nice razors, it would be a shame to ruin them.

Post some pics of all your razors and stones.

The link for the Summer meet is here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Stop… load up your stones and razors and bring them to the So. Cal Summer meet, Sunday, August 17, 2014.


The link for the Summer meet is here.

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That is really the best advice, the one on one at the meets will give you more help then months or even years of forum time, plus they are pretty fun too :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Listen to the man.

Stop… load up your stones and razors and bring them to the So. Cal Summer meet, Sunday, August 17, 2014.

Seriously, you are doing irreparable damage to what may be mint razors. While it may be possible to hone a razor with your stones, you need to learn how to use them and there are much better alternatives for the novice.

And use tape so you at least do not ruin the spine and the edge.

The first thing is learning how to set a bevel and know when the bevel is set. Until the bevel is set nothing else matters.

Welcome to the forum. As you have found… it is not as easy as it looks, hands on coaching will dramatically increase your learning curve. Sounds like you may have some nice razors, it would be a shame to ruin them.

Post some pics of all your razors and stones.

The link for the Summer meet is here.

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Will definitely try and make this. Just hoping I don't have work... thanks for the info

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html

Read rule #1...

1. Learn to walk away, if a razor has you stumped, learn to walk away, set that razor aside, and move to the next one, or get up and go do something else.. Sitting there Grinding on a razor normally achieves nothing good.. I have read posts where people are putting in more then 1 hour on one hone, that is just too long...

Now after grinding on that thing for hours you have finally decided to seek help, after you wiped away all the clues that might have been on the razor to help us help you.. Now we have an entirely new set of issues that you have introduced to the spine and edge...

Hint #1 - Set this razor aside until you have much more experience

Hint #2 because you won't listen to #1 :) Put 3 layers of tape on it and do the MM test and see what happens, that will help mask the spine wear at least

Simple fact, now you have to learn to hone around the errors, or what we call "Honing Gymnastics"

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Will do. It wasn't in the best shape to begin with, just hoping I didnt make it worse.. But since yesterday I have set it aside. I tried the MM test with 3 layers but it hits above the edge. There is the thinnest line right along the edge that is not being hit. Right now all i can ask for is advice, although, this time I will read everyones tips and use them down the road when I have much more experience. Just going to stick to my other razors for now :D

For those asking for pictures of the grind and my stones.. here ya go.

Here you can see some of the spine wear from the previous owner, pretty even though
Attachment 175179

If I'm correct I think this would be wither a half or quarter hollow grind. it may look like the spine is uneven, but I was holding it tilted on accident :p
Attachment 175180

The stones from left to right are.. combination course/fine india stone ( don't really use because it eats razors for breakfast) a combination soft/hark arkansas, and a surgical black arkansas. All stones are brand new and measure 6x2x1/2
Attachment 175181

Thanks for posting the photos of the blade. It looks to be a near wedge and might have a lot of spine wear which could make the geometry way off. That would make the razor very hard to hone especially for a beginner. I had one W&B that I had to finally build a temporary false spine on to be able to hone it. Still can't look at that razor without wanting to fire it out the window.

Take Glen's advice step away from it and go to the SoCal summer meet. There is always the possibility that there is a member in your area that could help too.

Bob

That seems to be the best reason as to why its so hard for me. I was able to work on a full hollow boker the other day with no problems, even got a pretty good shave off of it. But I have yet to hone a wedge, and from what I have heard they tend to be tougher to hone in general, even without previous spine wear from another owner. So I will keep away from it for a while.. a long while haha. Hopefully I can make it out to the SoCal meet, I should be able to get a lot of help from people there.

From limited experience I would not say that near wedges are any harder to hone than a full hollow if both are in decent condition. Don't be put off near wedges by one razor that may have major issues.

Bob