I can't believe it...success with my Coticule (maybe)

I spent a few days at the beach. While I was there I shaved with a brand new straight that was professionally honed with a Coticule. It gave me some great shaves and I told myself "I've got to learn how to do this". So I got home today and dusted off my Coticule. I had terrible results the last time I used it but I know it works well because I sent it to mjsorkin in Feb of 2013. He sent back my Coticule and my straight razor and I was very pleased with the results.

I used a razor that was professionally honed, so I didn't set the bevel. About 2 weeks ago I honed it on a Naniwa SS 5k, I spent too much time on that stone. I then went to a Naniwa 8, 10 & 12k, the edge looked like a mirror, but it was too sharp for my taste. So I thought that it would be perfect to practice on, since I didn't like the edge. I ran the edge just once on a glass, to kill the edge. It wouldn't pass the HHT anymore.

Here is what I did differently:

I watched the Dilucot video from coticule.be
I lapped my Coticule with a Naniwa 12k
I used half strokes just like in the Dilucot video
I didn't use a spray bottle, just a few drops from my finger
I didn't make the slurry very thick
I held the coticule in my hand, like I do with my Swaty

I then went straight from the coticule to the HHT, no stropping, and it passed. I couldn't believe it, then I thought that maybe the Naniwa edge with still there. So I ran the straight razor on a glass 3 times to really makes sure the edge was dead. It wouldn't pass the HHT at all. This time it took 2 trips to the Coticule to get it to pass the HHT but eventually it did. The edge got better after 30 laps on linen and 60 on leather. I can't wait to shave with it tomorrow, it's the all important shave test. I'm sure it will be fine since it passed my HHT.

Here is what I think made the difference:

Somebody else set the bevel
Slurry not as thick
using half strokes
holding the coticule in my hand

I'll give the results of my shave tomorrow. If I don't get a good shave I'll throw the coticule in the lake!!! The Bass will have better use for it than me. LOL

If you don't have a good shave just give yourself a wee rest. My grandfather always said "It is a poor tradesman that blames his tools". I do also realize that not all cotis are created equal though. Many people here have gone through many before they found one that they could get along with.

during a dulicut progression on my coticule I only use half strokes (and sometime circles)

but now I do finish with a serie of X-strokes on water in order to make sure I don't have a wire edge which happened to me a few times I gues as a result from slow dilution in combination with half strokes.

I hope you will start enjoying your coticule :chapeau

by the way, I have never been able to pass a hanging hair test comming straight from the coticule I always had to strop on plain leather first

I use this method but have abandoned half strokes for circles, big circles.
If you dulled the edge on glass, then it was you that set the bevel on that occasion?
cotis generally give up a smooth edge but maybe not uber keen (depends a lot on your rock).
Cotis are not the easiest hone to use but great fun learning.

Would you use a finishing stone after using the Coti?

For instance could you or would you then go to a Nani 12k or an Escher for a finish?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Would you use a finishing stone after using the Coti?

For instance could you or would you then go to a Nani 12k or an Escher for a finish?

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For me not always, depends what edge I'm in the mood for. Someone described a coticule edge as delightfully dull and I like that description, You have to spend some time with it to know what all the fuss is about.
If I feel like a JNAT edge I will get a good coticule edge first before finishing on my Ozuku. Personally I don't like the nani 12k but all this stuff is pure preference.

Joe

delightfully dull might just be spot on, it's just realy soft on the skin but still shaves the beard

@Phrank, I consider my coti a finishing hone but if you go further to an escher I think it doesn't realy matter if you are comming from a coti or a SS 10K or something like that

The shave I had with my Coticule edge was...ok. I feel like the edge was almost there. It wasn't as good as the professionally honed coticule edge but it was good enough to make me stick with the Coticule. I'll keep practicing but I find it's a hit or miss sort of thing for me right now. Last night I tried honing it again on my coticule but I used more pressure. The edge was duller in the middle than on the toe or heel. Too much pressure I guess. I'll try it again tonight with less pressure.

Are you using a slurry now?

Did you dilute to clear water? You said you watched the Dilucot video, but is that what you did?

Have you looked at the edge, did it come together? Your bevels may be flat, but the edge is not set, meeting completely.

Go back to a light slurry and set the bevel, then dilute to clear water with very light pressure and x stroke laps.

Slurry, itself can be an art form. It’s not always as easy as slapping a DMT on the stone and doing some laps. First the edge has to come together, then the slurry has to polish the bevel, without dulling the edge.

Over time I have come to love my coti more and more. The more you use yours the better you'll get. I only hand hone on mine now. I find any stone that must have slurry on it is easier in hand. You can shift your hand/stone around to make sure slurry isn't going all over the place. Setting a bevel on the coti is basically the same process you describe just heavier slurry.

Once I get stiction on my coti, 5 strokes on my CH12K yields one pass shaves.

I've got a new found appreciation for old cotis that don't seem that smooth. I bought a very hard coticule from disburden several years ago and it's a good finisher for a coti because it will not release particles and will get burnished on the surface and then polish the stone.

Then I got this coti in the mail:
Belgian Coticule Straight Razor or Fine Tool Hone Hard Wood Case | eBay

The seller mentioned "it's had oil on it", which I'm indifferent about, I just don't want to put oil on my good ones because I know most of the market detests it and it'll be a problem when I sell it if water beads on it.

So I used this one with water. It's OK - the seller had lapped the surface to a shine, no clue how. Water beaded a little, but not enough to be problematic. But the results were the butterknife coticule kind of edge you'd expect.

I got two razors in the mail last week, and noticing that there's already still an oil film oil on the surface of the stone, put mineral oil on it and one of the razors felt like I'd honed it on a j-nat (a very super double hollow ground ringing solingen razor) and the other one was still blah (a dovo bismarck). I'm too busy enjoying the shaves from the first one to go back and figure out why the results didn't translate on the second one.

You can see by the price for that auction why I don't care if the recent coti order stays oiled. It was listed BIN for $25, and it's closer to 2" wide than whatever the seller did to measure it. The seller also didn't use the horrid expensive "royal mail signed for" so the total take was only about $37. Knowing that novaculite finishes better with mineral oil than it does with water, I'd wanted to try it anyway (my deep rock label says "use with oil or water", but I"m not about to put oil on a stone that valuable).

I still am completely puzzled by the price of coticules, though. If they weren't pretty, they wouldn't sell for much. Same as if there were still a half dozen mines open. I think the only reason we play with them is because they are a stone that takes more fidgeting with to get a good result, and they're expensive.

My luck changed drastically when I got an LV from Ardennes. Fast and fine finisher. Never could get that edge off my other 3 cotis and Ive tried many time. I also have a Les Lat hybrid that with the hybrid side produces a Jnat type edge. BIG difference in stones. The softer the coti, the faster you will get what you want from it IMO. My les lat yellow side slurry starts to turn black in 5 strokes! And the LV in there as well. Not all cotis are created equal. Can you get a shaveable edge off of one? Sure but the time it takes may not be worth it.

@Bram, My first hone was a coti. I learned to use it and use it well. It is my workhorse hone and sometimes my finishing hone too. I have several now but the first one I got is my best, fast on slurry but smooth and very high grit for a coti. I got lucky and the person I bought it from knew their stuff. That being said I too very rarely get a razor to pass the HHT straight off the coti. But even shaving straight off the coti with out stropping I still can get a good shave on most of my razors. However once I strop and then try the HHT, the hairs, well they be poppin like they was in the club however its silent unlike the club. Haha, stupid analogy. Guess thats what happens when you've been up for 30 hours.

@ DaveW,
I wouldn't worry about putting oil on a coti. Even if you want to use it with water afterwards just use some soapy water, coti's aren't porous. In fact when I finish with an arkie, I first use a coti with slurry, then only water, then with oil, all on the same coti. Never had any problems with water beading after washing it off. A few laps with a dmt to get to fresh un-oiled stone is another option. Or you could also try smith's honing solution. Which is oil like but water soluble. All you gotta do is rinse it off. You mentioned it felt like a J-nat. I don't have one but I know you have some nice arkies. Well on my coti at least, when I use oil with it to finish the razor I would say it is almost close to a nice arkie finish. Not quite there but pretty close.

Yeah, at a given level of keenness, all of the natural stones feel similar (that being a high level of keenness). I'd imagine if you looked at their stropped edges under a scope, they would probably look the same and keenness would be determined by the thickness of the bevel right at the edge. I was curious if I suspended the razor with oil, if I could bring up the level of polish but still get a super keen but smooth feel, but that wasn't the case - what I ended up with was a razor that was pretty similar to arks and jnats. Well, of course there is some smooth feel with those, too, but there is a level of dullness that some cotis impart that makes them shave hair but not bumps or any blemishes you may have that day. Once the keenness level from this coti was kicked up, those became weepers like they would with any other stone.

I'm not so concerned about getting the oil off of an uncracked coti, I'd imagine they could be boiled like an ark stone, but I just don't want to even have to cover my own tracks, and the deep rock coti has a big label on the back that would come off with any cleaning regimen - and it would get soaked with oil, anyway.

(I have a lot of arks by the way, but admit they all do about the same thing, so there's no reason for me to have a lot of them...I just think they're a neat stone).

Simple Green and water soak will remove any oil on a Coticule and not damage the stone, except a glued stone. A glued stone may come apart, but can be re-glued.

I think it’s the water more than the Simple Green that makes them come apart, probably a water based glue, I think some old ones used hide glue.

Smith’s is the best alternative as stated, 2-3 drops on a wet stone is all you need. Other than obsession or a challenge, there are better/easier choices for a finishing stone, especially with a novice honer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Simple Green and water soak will remove any oil on a Coticule and not damage the stone, except a glued stone. A glued stone may come apart, but can be re-glued.

I think it’s the water more than the Simple Green that makes them come apart, probably a water based glue, I think some old ones used hide glue.

Smith’s is the best alternative as stated, 2-3 drops on a wet stone is all you need. Other than obsession or a challenge, there are better/easier choices for a finishing stone, especially with a novice honer.

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I've got some smiths and ballistol that a friend sent me as samples, but am a woodworker and prefer (due to cheapness) just to use food grade mineral oil ($14 a gallon). I'll draw heat for saying this, I but I don't have any glued coticules - I just don't like the way they look and I couldn't spend several hundred dollars on a glued stone. So, simple green wouldn't be a real problem. The real problem is that other than the deep rock, the other two have hairline cracks, however small they may be on the second stone (one crack an inch long that can't even be felt, compared to the bargain stone above that has a bunch of visible cracks).

I wouldn't suggest a coticule to a novice honer, either, especially if they value absolute sharpness as target #1, which is what most newbies go after. I haven't been a novice for a while, though.

That said, this the first coticule edge that I've gotten (with nothing other than a quick trip across a vintage linen and then horse butt) that reminds of a chrome ox edge, and I jointed off the entire edge, so there is zero chance that it was a left over keen edge. Linen and leather also guarantee that it isn't a false edge...I've been shaving with it all week now because I'm enamored with it.

I rarely rehone razors, though, usually only after 150 shaves or so. I'll get a chance to see if it's the same at 50 shaves as it is at 5. I can't ever recall having a razor that took a quality edge like this off of a natural stone that failed to last 6 months without seeing an abrasive of any kind - just linen and leather.

Feels good to have success for a variety of reasons, I know the feeling.
Naturals can be hit or miss especially in the beginning but to me that's part of the fun, just like getting to know any other tool.
I was so-so on my coticule until it became the only stone that could give a marvelous edge on my Rodgers. Now I'm sure a more talented honer could do this on a variety of stones, but it certainly floored me.
As has been said before they can vary quite a bit, and I was lucky enough to be able to get mine from fellow honer that could attest to the finishing qualities.
My coarser coticule will do bevel setting work like nobodies business. It's quite impressive.
Thanks for sharing and enjoy!

I finally had a decent shave this morning. After a series of failures I decided to reset the bevel but I couldn't do it on my Coticule. The slurry would only turn light gray with what I consider "Heavy" pressure. I used my Naniwa 1k with the same pressure and the water quickly turned black. I copied Lynn's video but at the end I did 30 x strokes with just water. The shave was uncomfortable but it was a lot closer than my previous efforts. So I did 60 more x strokes on water and stropped the razor with linen & leather. I shaved with the razor this morning and I noticed the difference immediately. It sounded differently and it was much more comfortable. I'm thinking maybe 30 more laps on water might get the edge even better.

I do a variation of the Dilucot method. I start with a milky slurry on the coticule and do circles until I can shave arm hair. I do 30 circles per side until I can achieve this. After that I rinse the razor and coticule and switch to my Belgian Blue Whetstone. I sometimes just do the Unicot Method but found I get a much nicer shave using the BBW to bridge the gap between coticule with slurry and coticule with water. I raise a milky coticule on the BBW and do about 50-75 laps. I then thumb pad test and if I like move on to the Coticule with water for a final polish doing 100+ laps. Then a nice stropping and a beautifully smooth shave. The coticule is wonderful after you practice on it. For a few weeks after every shave if I didn't find it successful I would dull the edge on a glass and set the bevel and hone from there. It takes a while and I'm still learning but don't give up just find a method that works for you! Good luck and congrats on the success.

I use the BBW with slurry and dilute as the middle step in my coticule honing process. Once the hairs are popping effortessly on my arm or leg, I then take it to the coti with water and sometimes coti with a soapy water. I don't really reach the desired level of keenness without using the BBW during the process, but then again, I've always used my BBW's while honing my razors on my coticules.