any advantage to slow natural hones?

I know that in certain woodworking circles, people believe an edge produced by an Arkansas stone will last longer than one produced by a synthetic waterstone.

And I remember that in the so-called "big experiment," thebigspendur (I think it was him) said that Coticule-finished edges lasted longer than Norton 8K ones.

I'm curious if anyone believes that natural stones generally produce more durable edges? If so, what on earth would the reason be for this? Metal fatigue from fast-cutting synthetic stones?

Also, would the notion apply only to the last stone used, or every stone along the way?

I use arkansas stones and did that experiment myself once with a norton and a translucent arkansas and the results were inconclusive on edge longevity, though the arkansas won the contest on sharpness. I didn't bother trying an arkansas/chrome oxide edge vs a norton/chrome oxide edge since the arkansas vs norton test was inconclusive. I should do it again sometime...

I do find that natural stones, at least the arkansas and tam o'shanter, seem to be less prone to microchipping and overhoning than the norton and shapton synthetics. I don't think it's a speed issue, because it's surprisingly easy to overhone with a barber hone.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I use arkansas stones and did that experiment myself once with a norton and a translucent arkansas and the results were inconclusive on edge longevity, though the arkansas won the contest on sharpness. I didn't bother trying an arkansas/chrome oxide edge vs a norton/chrome oxide edge since the arkansas vs norton test was inconclusive. I should do it again sometime...

I do find that natural stones, at least the arkansas and tam o'shanter, seem to be less prone to microchipping and overhoning than the norton and shapton synthetics. I don't think it's a speed issue, because it's surprisingly easy to overhone with a barber hone.

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MParker,

What kind of Arkansas did/do you use?

The only answer I can come up with is that every honing material is different and as it comes into contact with the steel modifies the metal in a different way. This can result in many senarios which I think I discussed in the "Grand experiment" in that, sometimes one stone will provide a sharper edge while another provides a more durable edge. The trick is to get the best of these two qualities. When durability and keeness reach an apex without one quality starting to degrade at the expense of the other then you have the ideal honing medium.

I think my point, if I recall was that the coticule had a superior edge as far as durability goes but there are other stones that will provide better keeness but the edge won't last as long.

I think overall the coticule did the best job for my purposes.

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Originally Posted by steve

What kind of Arkansas did/do you use?

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pink translucent.

I believe the garnet crystal is the best for the job as it cleaves naturally and the sharp edges float in the slurry formed on a coticule. Garnet is harder than any steel and will thus hone any steel. Diamond is naturally a cubic crystal and the geometry does different things to steel. As far as Norton vs Coticule... yes, I believe the coticule does a faster and better job due to the difference in the honing paradigm. With the Norton you're abrading the steel against abrasive particles that are part of the stone. With the coticule, the slurry is doing the abrading. Very different process with different results. You can see the results under magnification. Use the Radio Shack zippo lighter size magnifier and you'll see how an artificial stone scratches the metal differently from the polishing action of a coticule or escher stone. For a perfect edge I believe you have to use a natural stone and that belief is informed by experiencing the effects of different stones on different steels.

A Norton will give you an acceptable edge that will shave your face. What I'm talking about here though is that difference that you almost more have to "feel" than measure or forecast. I hear this all the time from customers. Many start out using Nortons and can't conceive that a coticule will be that much better. Then they try it and that's when I get the phone calls. It's a similar level of realization as that which you get when you drive your first BMW and you've been used to Fords or when you get your first custom golf clubs instead of the ones off the rack or when you first heft a knife made for your hand. Explaining the difference is much harder than feeling it.

Yep, like I said the comfort factor is the strong point with the coticule. There are many materials that will sharpen an edge but you can shave with a razor and it can give you a BBS shave but your face will have a degree if irritation and you can shave with a razor and get the same bbs shave and you face feels as smooth and comfortable as can be. You can test that when you apply the alum block or an aftershave with alot of alcohol.