Zowada method again

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I just gave the Tim Zowada method to my Johan Breidour Three Crosses razor. What a fantastic shave that method yields when done correctly.

This is a 7/8 blade and is just the size that suits me. We are having a meet-up Monday morning 9/8/14 at the home of Ron Wiley, [Neckbone] around 10 AM and this razor will be on the table for all to try. I don't expect any complaints. Also touched-up a Spanish point Wacker with Ebony scales for the occasion along with a Peter J Michels "Tru-Edge" which has long since proven to be very shave friendly .

Honing is nolonger a challenge for me. It's an exercise that is merely time consuming and somewhat tedious at times.
Set your bevel and then gently proceed up through the finer grits until your shave blows you and your whiskers away.

How much simpler can it get? However I am still in awe of the magnificent shaves from a properly honed quality blade.
Nice way to spend Monday morning with the guys.

The so called Double bevel Jerry?? Tape on the final strokes?

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

The so called Double bevel Jerry?? Tape on the final strokes?

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The final 3 to 5 works for me...........

A rarely used arrow in my quiver, but the Micro-Bevel does come in handy on an occasional razor..

A meet on Monday morning? Retirees? A cooler full of Ensure? :D Lemmme guess, golf after?

Sounds a good way to start the week. Yes, it works( tape and a few strokes) great for some, I agree! :tu
I think everyone should send their problem razors to Jerry! No problem! ;)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

A cooler full of Ensure? :D

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Love it!

I recently did a micro bevel and was quite happy with it but haven't been shaving with it long. Anyone had issues with it not holding up well?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

A rarely used arrow in my quiver, but the Micro-Bevel does come in handy on an occasional razor..

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Glen - I'm sure that thousands of razors of experience are involved in that call (Micro/double tape or Not) but are there any hints as to when this is "the way?"

For me - a novice - I've had success with this on razors that have a heaver grind - like a 7/8 Hart - and if memory serves that is a Zowanda inspired/guided design.

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Originally Posted by JoelLewicki

Love it!

I recently did a micro bevel and was quite happy with it but haven't been shaving with it long. Anyone had issues with it not holding up well?

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It holds up as well as any final edge does, maybe a little better in my experience.

I think it was discussed before in another thread that it's probably doing more to ensure you get that absolute edge vs a true micro bevel, that would probably take lower grits to create? Technicalities aside it does work really well it seems.
The only reason I mention what may be going on at the edge is that it could be a pasted strop is providing a similar effect? Slight dip in the strop maybe doing what an extra layer of tape does.
Thanks for the reminder - I'm going to do one like this tonight.

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Originally Posted by MJC

Glen - I'm sure that thousands of razors of experience are involved in that call (Micro/double tape or Not) but are there any hints as to when this is "the way?"

For me - a novice - I've had success with this on razors that have a heaver grind - like a 7/8 Hart - and if memory serves that is a Zowanda inspired/guided design.

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Ahhhhhh and there you just answered the question.. :)

Now you would never actually need to do the Double/Micro-bevel again on that Hart, if you just start the honing with two layers of tape (Assumption on my part) there is no need now for a micro bevel the final honing angle would be the same.. So if the micro-bevel works to smooth up the edge or eliminate micro chips then you now know that razor simply needs a steeper angle..
That also answers the question above about longevity, a full bevel at the correct angle for that razor, will outlast a Micro-bevel at the same angle, that is just simple geometry...

Please test it yourselves and see

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ahhhhhh and there you just answered the question.. :)

Now you would never actually need to do the Double/Micro-bevel again on that Hart, if you just start the honing with two layers of tape (Assumption on my part) there is no need now for a micro bevel the final honing angle would be the same.. So if the micro-bevel works to smooth up the edge or eliminate micro chips then you now know that razor simply needs a steeper angle..
That also answers the question above about longevity, a full bevel at the correct angle for that razor, will outlast a Micro-bevel at the same angle, that is just simple geometry...

Please test it yourselves and see

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Yep! +1 x 100....

You can micro bevel without the tape. Hone a blade through the whole progression heel leading, like using 1 1/2 inch of the width of the stone, then do your final finish laps straight on to x strokes. If you look at the edge with a loupe thats what you should get.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ahhhhhh and there you just answered the question.. :)

Now you would never actually need to do the Double/Micro-bevel again on that Hart, if you just start the honing with two layers of tape (Assumption on my part) there is no need now for a micro bevel the final honing angle would be the same.. So if the micro-bevel works to smooth up the edge or eliminate micro chips then you now know that razor simply needs a steeper angle..
That also answers the question above about longevity, a full bevel at the correct angle for that razor, will outlast a Micro-bevel at the same angle, that is just simple geometry...

Please test it yourselves and see

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Thank you for the note.
And I know that I have to test this myself.

To clarify - If I had done a 1 layer 4/8/12 and followed with a 2 layer 12K wt of the razor 12-14 strokes / Crox /Strop / Shave...
Would the next touch up be 2 layer 12K? (and I would assume that would be a place to start, and if that did not work go back to? (2 layer to bevel set or repeat my 1 layer to 2 layer cycle)

Forgive the novice questions as I think my rookie success is more luck than skill. (It worked but I don't know why)

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Originally Posted by bill3152

You can micro bevel without the tape. Hone a blade through the whole progression heel leading, like using 1 1/2 inch of the width of the stone, then do your final finish laps straight on to x strokes. If you look at the edge with a loupe thats what you should get.

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may be wrong but do not think it is possible to achieve a Micro Bevel without using tape in the final stages.

....tape thread............

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

may be wrong but do not think it is possible to achieve a Micro Bevel without using tape in the final stages.

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Well if you look at the edge with a loupe you will see a small distinct microbevel.

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Originally Posted by MJC

Thank you for the note.
And I know that I have to test this myself.

To clarify - If I had done a 1 layer 4/8/12 and followed with a 2 layer 12K wt of the razor 12-14 strokes / Crox /Strop / Shave...
Would the next touch up be 2 layer 12K? (and I would assume that would be a place to start, and if that did not work go back to? (2 layer to bevel set or repeat my 1 layer to 2 layer cycle)

Forgive the novice questions as I think my rookie success is more luck than skill. (It worked but I don't know why)

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Touch up yes, you would be correct just use 2 layers of tape with the 12k, or the 8k and then 12k, (I tend to drop 2 and go when doing touch ups)

But the next time you re-set the bevel on that razor, you would simply use 2 layers of tape from the get go and be done with it :) it would be the exact same bevel angle at the end as doing the Micro-Bevel..

You do however have to take into account the human factor when honing also, you said yourself "followed with a 2 layer 12K wt of the razor 12-14 strokes / Crox /Strop / Shave" what you are doing there is creating a finishing routine, so you have to follow that same routine when finishing to get the same results as when you used the Micro-Bevel...
What I am pointing out is it is very easy to attribute good results to a reason other than simply paying attention to the honing :hmmm: Think about that for a second

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What I am pointing out is it is very easy to attribute good results to a reason other than simply paying attention to the honing :hmmm: Think about that for a second

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Oh that I have been thinking about it, hence my question about my rookie success.

I had been getting steadily better in the "conventional" bevel set to finish routine.
But some times I would have to send a razor back after a shave test, not terrible but not good enough.

And I know that when we try something new we tend to stay extra focused on the process. (Hey, this is all new to me)
The new for me was refreshing razors that I had not honed, that had started to fade and that have had the Crox/Diamond treatment once before.

One had been honed by some guy in Idaho (A Max Sprecher) and the other two were Harts, 6/8 and 7/8 - all in good condition (no chips, damage) but not performing at their best.

I probably did not have to drop back to 4K, but I did and followed the routine for all three.
Today I shaved with the Hart 6/8 Baxter and all I can think is "I hope I can do that (honing) again..." - it was that wonderful.

Pay attention to the honing - listen to the razor (and keep your elbow up and sit up straight)

Thanks for the help..

Well you are for sure asking the right questions, :tu

Seems smoother to me....I hone with no tape on some razors ...and added a piece after I was done on the 12k,and did 5-7 strokes ....nice!!! Hey ...a guy who MAKES razors for a living has got to know a wee bit...yah Think ??????

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Originally Posted by nessmuck

Hey ...a guy who MAKES razors for a living has got to know a wee bit...yah Think ??????

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I 'll put on my black hat here & say, not necessarily. The best J/swordsmiths still send the sword out to the polisher for sharpening & then the next maker for scabbard etc but not casting nasturtiums at Tim's honing skills.


On topic. If you use progressively lighter strokes through the progression, the edge will polish before the bevel shoulder . You can see that under magnification. If not, your pressure is too heavy. This is not a microbevel but it kinda makes one unnecessary unless the geometry calls for it.

I would think the sharpeners and scabbard makers are apprentices (sp) under the master smith ??

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Originally Posted by nessmuck

Seems smoother to me....

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Maybe because the bevel is a bit steeper, even if only a degree or so.

Otherwise, the microbevel shouldn't do anything different from a razor honed without a microbevel if such other razor was honed top shelf.

I'm in glen's camp, I go to it usually only when I have a razor that the steel isn't good enough at it's regular geometry (happens sometimes), but is good enough with an extra degree or two of cutting angle.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

when I have a razor that the steel isn't good enough at it's regular geometry (happens sometimes), but is good enough with an extra degree or two of cutting angle.

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I have a razor like this. Would not hold an edge at 15 degrees, added one layer of tape to get 16 degrees and things improved. Finally bread knifed the blade to change the geometry to 17 degrees and all is well.

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Originally Posted by nessmuck

I would think the sharpeners and scabbard makers are apprentices (sp) under the master smith ??

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Nope all seperate masters in their own right.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Nope all seperate masters in their own right.

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Pretty much the same in tools. Someone made a paulownia box for a couple of my tools, and it's got kanji on it that someone applies as a trade. I don't even know if the box maker and the person doing the writing are the same, they might be two different people. Then the tool that goes into the boxes is either a chisel or a plane. For the nicer planes, the wooden body of the plane is made by a different maker than the plane iron, and on the chisels, the handles are made by a handle maker, and the chisel itself forged by the maker who signs the chisel. All of the trade masters are well known and have a stamp that identifies them.

The makers sharpen the tools, but not as well as the user does.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Pretty much the same in tools. Someone made a paulownia box for a couple of my tools, and it's got kanji on it that someone applies as a trade. I don't even know if the box maker and the person doing the writing are the same, they might be two different people..

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The kanji on the box may even be done by the maker's wife.
I know a fellow who's Japanese wife is a master in calligrapyhy.