Japanese Nagura - Honing Thought of the Day

I know I have read about some experiments done in the distant past but I was thinking as I unpacked a set of Nagura yesterday.

And having followed a couple of recent threads in the Hone/Honing forum

Why are we spending big money on Japanese naturals to only use them as base plates for making Nagura slurry ???
As I said I have seen this in the past, but was wondering if any "Experienced" J-nat honers have ever set aside convention and used say a Chinese PHIG (Another very hard very smooth stone) as a base for their Nagura..

Myself I finish on my Nakayama without Nagura slurry I enjoy using the different ones, and enjoy experimenting with them but haven't found any yet that can beat the stone's natural slurry finish (another discussion altogether)

So anyway I am going to play around with it on my test bed razor and see what happens, just going to substitute my PHIG in the mix using Nagura instead of my prized Nakayama..
Would love to hear if anyone else has seriously tried it, and would also welcome anyone to join in with experimenting with it..


Woooohoooo going to play with the Mud :p

I wouldn't call myself an "Experienced" J-Nat honer, but rather someone that has experience in using Jnats. I have finished quite a few blades using a full Nagura progression (from Botan through Komo)to finish a blade, on several different Jnats. I have also tried quite a few other stones (as well as a hard PHIG) using them as base plates with the Naguras. If your base plate is a hard finisher to begin with...like the Zulu or PHIG...it works very well, and gives you a very nice edge.

Back a couple of years ago Glen, you and Lynn had a real good discussion about one-hone honing, and I was curious enough to give it a try. All I can say is it works quite well.

BTW...nowadays I use my Nakayama most of the time with just a Tomonagura slurry and then water to finish a razor, having already taken it through a normal progression of stones. It's just faster this way...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Why are we spending big money on Japanese naturals to only use them as base plates for making Nagura slurry ???

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I asked myself the same question when I bought my jNat set from JNS earlier this year. I ended up getting a cheap Shoubudani type 100 (about 70$) to use as a baseplate for Naguras (i got a Mejiro , a Tenjyou and 2 unmarked tomo) and a Nakayama Maruichi Kamisori (about 240$) as a standalone finisher. I can't really comment further; at my current honing rate I should be able to "learn" this set by the end of the decade...

Cheers.

No expert here but not a stranger to Jnats. I think the unique composition of the stones from a relatively small area of the world(naguras come from there also), I would say they were made for each other. And nagura slurry is a mix of base and nagura stones usually(LOL hows that for science!)On the other hand, I never tried it so Im anxious to hear if this combination would work. I have heard some have tried naguras with coticules with mixed results. Subscribed and anxious to hear the results. I think smaller slurries to start(size of 2 quarters max) will allow you to see the change in the slurry as it is being worked much faster than a stone loaded with slurry.

Very interesting Glen. So if I follow you correctly, you would be going through the nagura progression on the PHIG and then finishing on the Nakayama with either a tomo slurry or water. Or are you planning to finish on the PHIG also. I guess you could make a few days of it and try everything. Have fun!

I seem to remember people talking about using different slurrys on Arks.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I seem to remember people talking about using different slurrys on Arks.

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Great minds and all that I was thinking a bit after posting this and was thinking along the same lines as Bill's post on the combination of the slurry..
This has often been the reason given, for why a J-nat works, however polishing the Base stone to mirror kinda defeats that thought process

See there is a bit of contradiction out there when it comes to actual thought patterns on what a J-nat does

I am adding my highly polished Arkie to the mix on this too because I have never found a Nagura harder then that stone :) Since it was the very first honing stone I ever bought some 30+ years ago for SR's I kinda know what that edge feels like hehehehe

ps: No I plan on not touching the Nakayama at all during this

Arks, jaspers and spydercos make decent very hard platforms for nagura honing.

I've tried this before with one of those phigs with stretch marks on it (you know, the good ones) and ultimately contaminated my stone at the end with chrome ox powder (something that was easily rectified later).

Anyway, I don't like the spyderco as a base (even the 8x3 UF after it's been used on tools to the point that it's not cutting anything), and not necessarily the jasper. In my opinion, if a stone has good feel and will leave a bright polish on clear water, I'm OK with it. If it doesn't have a good feel, then I'll find a stone that has a good feel.

Jaspers and settled in spydercos are more like burnishing plates than anything else, and I can't remember what I concluded with the arks, but I don't like arks on clear water to begin with , I like them with oil.

So, my vote is that a good phig is a decent basis for nagura use, but a dud phig is still a dud phig, and none of my phigs have been the same (out of four). The one with the stretch mark looking things was fantastic, two of the others are marginal and one was soft and released grit and was really unsuitable for anything.

Oh yeah, of course the plate has to be a non-scratchy stone.

Some of the shoubu and ozuku stones are so inexpensive now, even in hard state, that it's a better bet just to get a razor graded hard stone from a reputable dealer than it is to waste $150 on big phigs hoping you'll get one good one out of four.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

No expert here but not a stranger to Jnats. I think the unique composition of the stones from a relatively small area of the world(naguras come from there also), I would say they were made for each other.

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Of course it is easy to see why the stones would traditionally be used together since they are found close to each other, and because of centuries of this tradition, the skills of using them together would be highly refined. But I can't connect locality, similar composition, and tradition, with "made for each other"

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Originally Posted by DaveW

So, my vote is that a good phig is a decent basis for nagura use, but a dud phig is still a dud phig, and none of my phigs have been the same (out of four).

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LOL I found the exact same ratio I kept 1 outta 4

I later found the Hard scratchy ones could be polished and used like an oil (Using something slick) stone with decent results..

I found using nagura on PHIG works fine and will yield very efficient edges. The only henkie thing I found is the feedback off the base stone when you get heavily diluted or broken down slurry.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

LOL I found the exact same ratio I kept 1 outta 4

I later found the Hard scratchy ones could be polished and used like an oil (Using something slick) stone with decent results..

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Lucky you. My first one was a good one, and I sold it thinking all were like it and I could just get a different one. I bought three more trying to find one as good and gave up. Two I have (one is oiled), and the third was so soft I figured it would make good naguras and cut it up. Same with an aoto that I got from fujibato -too soft to do anything, but not a bad nagura of the only other option is to throw it away.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Of course it is easy to see why the stones would traditionally be used together since they are found close to each other, and because of centuries of this tradition, the skills of using them together would be highly refined. But I can't connect locality, similar composition, and tradition, with "made for each other"

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I said it wrong! What I meant was they developed this system by experimenting with different stones with many different qualities. So in the process this is the system they came up with. COuld there be better nagura stones to be used instead of these? Sure. What are they and where are they? I have no idea!

I haven't played around much with Nagura's on other stones than my JNats to be honest.
A great idea for some playtime with my hones though, so I'll give it a go myself.
As I don't own a PHIG anymore I thought I should try the same thing on my Charnley forrest instead to see what results that would yield.
Lord knows that thing is hard enough;)

Doesn't a nagura in sense take the place of a synthetic griit? A thousand plus year old system. Why not just use the synthetic? In sense I have experimented and lately have been using cotis, and when jnat honing because it was force feed to me only use naguras on my Jnats does it create. Better edge who knows .. It is a lot easier just to,use the synthetics.. If presented with a choice years ago would they choose the naguras or good old synthetics ..?? Naguras are a sense of challenge and as My man Bill says do react differently on different stones... But I have learned by doing.. Just do it is my motto I don't have a phig but look forward to your results..

it will be interesting to see the results from the Mikawa nagura on a different "platform". I have tried slurry from awasedo, for example uchigumori, suita, and Jnat finishers on other platforms and it doesn't work - apparently the host stone needs to be energized by the slurry into continuously releasing its own. Slurry without replenishment only lasts a time measured in seconds. Here's how my experiment came about.

I was interested in polishing knives, not honing a straight, and had the idea that I'd use small pieces of uchigumori or suita to create slurry that could be used on glass, felt, etc to create the kasumi finish since large pieces of pure uchigumori can literally be $6-10K, and are difficult if not impossible to even buy (not that I would!). Whhat I found, and Alex Gilmore independently when I discussed it with him, is that off the awasedo the slurry only polishes, you cannot create kasumi off the awasedo!

Alex had tried tomo slurry on glass and found the same result -without the host stone releasing its own slurry, the transferred slurry only polished and was depleted in a period probably best measured in seconds.

So I'm interested in hearing people's experiences!

BTW, I save the slurry from lapping my Jnats or spent tomo slurry on small pieces of lint-free paper and use them to clean my razors after use. I let them dry for storage the just spritz them lightly for use. Too much water leaves slurry on the blade. You can also use these slurry "wipes" to polish fountain pens and the most delicate finishes like polished gold. No kasumi.

Cheers, Steve

Great share Steve! I have quite a few stones and it seems there can be a big difference between them even though the naguras are the same. That tells me there is definitely something going on with the base stone. Some stones scratch more water only, others not so much, the most common thing Ive found with all of them is the slurry acts like a buffer or "oil" to work together to REDUCE(i wont say remove as the haze even a bright finish has scratches)these and further refine the edge. BUT some stones are scratchy slurry or not. To think of a finishing stone as inert? Nah. I really dont think so unless I dont believe my own eyes. If this was so then they would all produce identical scratch patterns, haze and finish the same using the same naguras. Great discussion gentlemen! I am enjoying this thoroughly.

Seems like the slurry needs to have purchase on the base platform, so even if the base stone doesn't contribute abrasives to the slurry the purchase it gives could explain some of the differences seen among base platforms.

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Originally Posted by Steve56

it will be interesting to see the results from the Mikawa nagura on a different "platform". I have tried slurry from awasedo, for example uchigumori, suita, and Jnat finishers on other platforms and it doesn't work - apparently the host stone needs to be energized by the slurry into continuously releasing its own. Slurry without replenishment only lasts a time measured in seconds. Here's how my experiment came about.

I was interested in polishing knives, not honing a straight, and had the idea that I'd use small pieces of uchigumori or suita to create slurry that could be used on glass, felt, etc to create the kasumi finish since large pieces of pure uchigumori can literally be $6-10K, and are difficult if not impossible to even buy (not that I would!). Whhat I found, and Alex Gilmore independently when I discussed it with him, is that off the awasedo the slurry only polishes, you cannot create kasumi off the awasedo!

Alex had tried tomo slurry on glass and found the same result -without the host stone releasing its own slurry, the transferred slurry only polished and was depleted in a period probably best measured in seconds.

So I'm interested in hearing people's experiences!

BTW, I save the slurry from lapping my Jnats or spent tomo slurry on small pieces of lint-free paper and use them to clean my razors after use. I let them dry for storage the just spritz them lightly for use. Too much water leaves slurry on the blade. You can also use these slurry "wipes" to polish fountain pens and the most delicate finishes like polished gold. No kasumi.

Cheers, Steve

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Well I tried the PHIG last night as I had it out to finish a couple three Heljies so after I was done with them, I tried working up a slurry but I noticed the Grey from the PHIG in with Nagura slurry so I put it down as a Failure to what I was trying to achieve..

Keep in mind it very well might have worked just fine with honing a razor but That is not quite what I am looking at here I already know the PHIG that I have will finish a razor just fine all by it's lonesome...

Phig slurry is coarse so far as I have noticed....coarse and slow for how coarse it is. The same slowness is probably what allows a nice polish job on a good one that can hold its grains in place, I guess.

No matter how hard the base stone is some will come through on the slurry especially with botan and the coarser nagura. I think the magic is in that mixture.

I used to have the same question about the usefulness of the base stone for a long time, until I bought my first good, expensive Jnat. And, of course, I tried it.
Not the nagura with other than Japanese stones as base, but the opposite, using slurry stones, coticules, Thuringians, C12ks on the Jnat. And, the results confirmed that the base stone is the most important thing.
A far too coarse coticule slurry stone gave a very fine edge, the Thuringian and C12k gave an edge almost same to the one from a good Nakayama tomonagura I have, and even the Belgian blue gave an excellent shaving edge. I'm talking about 100 passes after a 5k, finishing with medium-thin slurry.
I tried to use a Meijiro nagura on a C12k, but it was digging in the stone, and I was afraid of the presence of bigger particles in there. The same happened with the Nakayama slurry stone. But I used the Mikawa nagura on a coticule base stone, and I didn't notice a big difference, from using a coticule slurry stone.

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

No matter how hard the base stone is some will come through on the slurry especially with botan and the coarser nagura. I think the magic is in that mixture.

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I'd second that, this far.
My tests yesterday did not leave me with the same silky smooth and super-sharp edges I get from my Asagi's and Kiita's.
But I'll keep trying a bit more!