Troublesome TI that wont take a hone more than 8-10k

Hi All! So I jumped into this amazing hobby about 7 months ago with a brand new Hart Steel "Not A Replica" that was gifted to me. I took to straights like a fish to water and within a month, was already eyeing up my next toy, which I wanted to be a hollow ground. With razors in shortage this summer, I reluctantly went to AOS to pick up one of their AOS etched TI's and have been regretting it... I love their product and continue to buy it today, but I don't think I could ever purchase any more hardware. The story begins....

My first faulty assumption was that the TI quality would be in line with my Hart. WRONG. I grabbed the razor never inspecting it in the store, got home, wiped off the grease and the blade was totally warped and the bevel was completely jacked up. Wide in some spots to nearly non existent in others. I went to take it back to the shop (took several visits) and I finally with the manager, who clearly knew what she was doing, immediately saw the problem, and exchanged for a new blade. A quick inspection showed even hone wear, and an even edge.

I shaved with the factory edge for a few weeks which was nice, but after making the newbie mistake of rapping my Hart on the faucet during a rinse, I figured I would get both blades dialed in by a pro. I drove over to Ken Rup's place (RupRazor) to fix my Hart and tune up my TI. While honing, Ken told me that TI had been having quality issues in the past, but that they should have been fixed. Being the awesome guy Ken his, he showed me the magnified view of the blade as he moved to each hone, and explained the progression. When he got to the 20k though, the edge crumbled. He took it back two more times, and eventually it held, but he had never seen that before. Also noting the slight warp in this blade too, that I did not originally notice.

Fast forward a few more months of shaving and reading SRP forums about honing, and I picked up my Chinese 12k for bimonthly touch-ups and eventually a Norton 4k/8k combo. Never putting the TI to a stone myself, I decided to give it a whirl. I was effortlessly popping off hairs after the 8k, and took it to the 12k for finishing and it happened again. Just like on Ken's 20k Shapton, the razor became useless... I tried taking it back to 8k then 12k a few times with no results and settled for shaving off of the 8k.

Is this common with TIs? I have honed my Hart once (and some 12k touch-ups) and have since purchased a Dovo and have no issues there either, so I know my skills are well enough to get a smooth edge.

I haven't honed up a TI before :shrug: Have you tried a layer or two of tape to adjust the bevel angle?

I have a couple of razors that exhibit that for some reason. I think I've worked through with one that wasn't ground perfectly from the factory, and another I'm still working on. They would pop hair via HHT cleanly off a 5k Superstone or my JNat pre-finisher, 5-8 k range. Then they seem like the HHT gets much worse off the fine JNat finisher.

I don't know how it happens with TIs, all of the new ones I have are fine though I wouldn't call the grinding the best.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JustAKnick

Hi All! So I jumped into this amazing hobby about 7 months ago with a brand new Hart Steel "Not A Replica" that was gifted to me. I took to straights like a fish to water and within a month, was already eyeing up my next toy, which I wanted to be a hollow ground. With razors in shortage this summer, I reluctantly went to AOS to pick up one of their AOS etched TI's and have been regretting it... I love their product and continue to buy it today, but I don't think I could ever purchase any more hardware. The story begins....

My first faulty assumption was that the TI quality would be in line with my Hart. WRONG. I grabbed the razor never inspecting it in the store, got home, wiped off the grease and the blade was totally warped and the bevel was completely jacked up. Wide in some spots to nearly non existent in others. I went to take it back to the shop (took several visits) and I finally with the manager, who clearly knew what she was doing, immediately saw the problem, and exchanged for a new blade. A quick inspection showed even hone wear, and an even edge.

I shaved with the factory edge for a few weeks which was nice, but after making the newbie mistake of rapping my Hart on the faucet during a rinse, I figured I would get both blades dialed in by a pro. I drove over to Ken Rup's place (RupRazor) to fix my Hart and tune up my TI. While honing, Ken told me that TI had been having quality issues in the past, but that they should have been fixed. Being the awesome guy Ken his, he showed me the magnified view of the blade as he moved to each hone, and explained the progression. When he got to the 20k though, the edge crumbled. He took it back two more times, and eventually it held, but he had never seen that before. Also noting the slight warp in this blade too, that I did not originally notice.

Fast forward a few more months of shaving and reading SRP forums about honing, and I picked up my Chinese 12k for bimonthly touch-ups and eventually a Norton 4k/8k combo. Never putting the TI to a stone myself, I decided to give it a whirl. I was effortlessly popping off hairs after the 8k, and took it to the 12k for finishing and it happened again. Just like on Ken's 20k Shapton, the razor became useless... I tried taking it back to 8k then 12k a few times with no results and settled for shaving off of the 8k.

Is this common with TIs? I have honed my Hart once (and some 12k touch-ups) and have since purchased a Dovo and have no issues there either, so I know my skills are well enough to get a smooth edge.

---

I hope this is a random instance?


Mike

Since you were there, what did Ken do to get it to hold an edge?

Your C12K is most probably a long way from a Shapton 20k.

Any of a number of reasons could cause edge crumbling, the main one an inexperienced honer. Don’t take this the wrong way, but honing especially finish honing a razor is not as easy as someone like Ken can make it look.

Find local mentor and have your razor and technique examined.

This is what I would try as well, the edge might be to thin to hold up, adding tape will increase the angle and add some strength to the bevel. This has worked great on crumbly edges for me on several different razors

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattCB

I haven't honed up a TI before :shrug: Have you tried a layer or two of tape to adjust the bevel angle?

---

I would say 20k is to much for the edge, I never had or use 20 k stone, but I think is because too much pressure on the blade.
If you press hard, the edge tend to crumple. Also try to back edge , leading with the spine. I finish all my razor keeping the stones, coticule or Escher on my hand. I can feel the blade much better. I think TI can take easy 12-15 k unless is faulty forged.

Ken honed with tape, and I followed suit since I assumed re-setting the bevel without tape would take some time without a 1k. Maybe I should try a second layer to finish? That's what he put on my Hart on the last few strokes.

A thought here, Gentlemen. It is entirely possible to have overhoned the razor prior to the finisher. If it has a 'foil' edge off the last hone, (which is easily done!) then subsequent higher grits would possibly make the problems worse. If it were mine, I would dull it on a glass bottle and start over with less! JMHO

Honestly, it was a few months ago so I can't remember clearly, but I think he brought it back to an 8 or 10k, then to the 20k a few times until it got there.

I agree, I wouldn't even try to say the C12k compares to the Shapton and my skills definitely are not there yet as I can count on one hand how many times I've honed. I just find it very interesting that I can hone and finish on the 12k with my Hart no problem, but this TI just wont work with me.

sharptonn, I considered that possibility after my first attempt and tried a pyramid. I think the edge was a little better off the 8k with a pyramid, but had similar results when I jumped to the 12k after only 15 strokes or so. I considered dulling the blade, but I was concerned about re-setting a bevel without a 1k. Doable on a 4k or will I be there for a while?

A few strokes on the side of a smooth bottle should get you to the 4k, IF it is as suspected. Tighten up the pyramid and do less. Shave off the 8k good before going forward. Then, 20 strokes on the 12k, strop and see?

So what does the edge look like with magnification?

Are you are hitting the whole edge?

Is the edge chipping or just not cutting hair?

If chipping, two layers of tape may help, ink the bevel to make sure you are getting to the edge. Lightly joint the edge on the corner of the stone, one or two strokes, until you do not feel the chips and reset the bevel on the 4K.

Finish with light laps on the 8K, strop and shave test.

Seen this plenty of times for all the reasons listed above, foil edges, large grain steel breaking off, and so on. Tape helped some keeping down at 8k worked well for others. Every razor is different and as you go along you will find what THAT razor likes. Your skills will only get better as you try out new ideas :)

My first 2 years of shaving with a straight was off a Norton 4/8k stone, worked just fine (and far more affordable...) :)

I have honed thousands and thousands of the newer TI's and they all have turned out to be very nice shavers. That said, most have been a complete pain in the you know what to hone. If you look at many of the new ones you will see heels that are broken and then repaired and sold that way, uneven flattening of the spine that most time does not match on both sides, wider bevels on the front side indicating burr removal probably on the final grinding and in many cases a double bevel already existing. The biggest problem in honing these razors is in getting the bevel set properly and although many people may think they have the bevel set, I am betting not. Whether you use tape or not, and keep in mind that the tape will only help you save further wear on the spine, these razors simply take considerable time to get the bevel right. It can be hard to get the double bevel out, you may be creating a double bevel after you think you have one out, but you really need to make sure your test for the bevel is fool proof or you make sure under the microscope that your scratch marks extend all the way down the bevel to the edge uniformly. I have spent hours on some of these just setting the bevel and walked away from a few until the next day. But, in every case, once the bevel was set properly, I could proceed and I am using mostly Naniwa's presently, going to the 5K, 8K, 12K and then Suehiro 20K ending up with a fine shaver.

As an alternative and again taping is your decision, the Rolling X can be used from bevel setting to finish and you should end up with a nice shaver.

I am seeing some improvement from TI in the past year and hopefully it will continue, but based on their final grinding, they will remain a little harder to hone in my opinion.

Have fun.

For anyone reading this, I would, if I were going to spend the considerable money a TI costs, look on ebay for NOS razors from the 20s through the 60s or 70s before buying a new TI.

The NOS razors might not be any cheaper than a new TI, but I have had much better luck with the quality of the high end razors from 50 to 100 years ago than I have with a couple dozen more recently made razors.

I don't know if the piece rate requirements don't allow the cutlers as much time to do final straightening of the spines, or make them hurry when grinding, but it's annoying!!

The TIs I get in for honing(modern) almost always have a double bevel or wavy bevel. I straighten them out with a 4k(6 micron) dmt. For whatever reason seems that the dmt cuts faster than a chosera 1k. I dont know why. Anyway it always takes a long time to get the bevel set. After the dmt, I start from the 1k chosera and up. If synth edge, like this never seen trouble going to a 20k suehiro, but the bevel as was said is the battle here always IMO.

A word of caution for novice honers, using diamond plates for bevel setting, while they can get bevels flat… quicker, they also can lead to chipping down the road, when heavy pressure and course plates are used.

I have had some success with new TI's and other hard steel, getting the bevels flat with diamond plates but not meeting, not completely set, then complete the bevel set with a 1k to avoid chipping in the finish hones.

If they do chip, remove chipping with light jointing on the corner of the stone and re-set the bevel until the edge will hold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill3152

The TIs I get in for honing(modern) almost always have a double bevel or wavy bevel. I straighten them out with a 4k(6 micron) dmt. For whatever reason seems that the dmt cuts faster than a chosera 1k. I dont know why. Anyway it always takes a long time to get the bevel set. After the dmt, I start from the 1k chosera and up. If synth edge, like this never seen trouble going to a 20k suehiro, but the bevel as was said is the battle here always IMO.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

A word of caution for novice honers, using diamond plates for bevel setting, while they can get bevels flat… quicker, they also can lead to chipping down the road, when heavy pressure and course plates are used.

I have had some success with new TI's and other hard steel, getting the bevels flat with diamond plates but not meeting, not completely set, then complete the bevel set with a 1k to avoid chipping in the finish hones.

If they do chip, remove chipping with light jointing on the corner of the stone and re-set the bevel until the edge will hold.

---

Another trick:

I consider a Plate for a Pre-bevel and use them for drastic repair, correction etc: but if you add an extra layer of tape or two when using them you will confine the deep scratches they impart to the very end of the bevel, Once corrected, you drop the extra tape, kill the edge lightly and re-set a normal bevel, this will take out the deep scratches and leave you with a clean strong bevel again, with minimal effort... Saves me a ton of time :p
Hone On !!!!

Did just that recently with a Richmond razor, said to be made from the steel he makes his knives from, a very hard and brittle steel.
I experienced a lot of chipping, as did a couple of others in a recent post. Jointed and re-honed a couple of time with no success.

Then I went to 3 layers of tape, jointed and dropped to two tape layers and finished the bevel set on the Chosera. The edge held well and is a nice shaver with a wide blade that sells for 25 -30 dollars, I forget.

The blade otherwise is well ground, nice, straight and wide, It will make a nice blade for customization or entry level razor. Getting an edge on it could give you fits, though. The edge is holding well and should, as hard as it is. They do need some new scales badly. It’s on the bench and in line.

This tip does work well for hard chippy steel and Diamond plates.

Just a thought...I've ran into razors that just didn't seem to take well to the C12K. Not that it has anything to do with the crumbling edge. I'm not even sure why I would want to go to a 20k edge, of course I thought that to when I was shaving only off an 8k edge...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trimmy72

Just a thought...I've ran into razors that just didn't seem to take well to the C12K. Not that it has anything to do with the crumbling edge. I'm not even sure why I would want to go to a 20k edge, of course I thought that to when I was shaving only off an 8k edge...

---

No expert here but I would take a good look at the stone you have. Ive had a few Jnats that were chippy until I lapped past some roughness. After a good lap and smoothing out, they were fine. A slow cutter like that I wouldnt think would create issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill3152

No expert here but I would take a good look at the stone you have. Ive had a few Jnats that were chippy until I lapped past some roughness. After a good lap and smoothing out, they were fine. A slow cutter like that I wouldnt think would create issues.

---

I'm not sure that it would make sense that some razors take to it and others not, if that were the case. Certainly worth a look none the less and thanks for the suggestion, I'll probably look at it this week and give it another good lapping. I would like to use it, instead of it just sitting in storage.

I have a couple of new TIs from TI UK, the Basic Blacks, and my experience agrees with Lynn and Bill's comments. The last one was a 7/8" and needed a lot of time on the hones to eliminate a double bevel. The bevel on the 7/8 is wide and not even, but in the end it shaves very, very well. Both the 11/16 and 7/8 are among my favorite razors. The 11/16 is ground better, but I have only 2 samples to compare.

Cheers, Steve

Thanks all for the recommendations and expert support. After the first time I honed the razor I started to see the wavy bevel and noted that I was pushing uneven water lines, which I believe are indicators of warp. From there I started using the rolling x and heel first strokes in an attempt to compensate, which worked great and shaved well...until i got to the 12k.

This weekend, I'll probably spend a little more time on the 4k to re-set the bevel (if I can) since that sounds like it may be my issue. Unfortunately, I don't have magnification to do a visual check. I'll also try marking the edge to ensure contact. I already tape the blade, with an extra layer after a few passes on the 12k...so go to three layers on the finish? If all else fails, maybe this is one that I just send off for professional correction.

I'm pretty sure this may be my first and last TI based on some of the comments above and what I've read on other forums. This was my second blade and I really didn't know what to look for in a "good" blade. The significant amount factory spine wear on the first TI and the replacement (which my Dovo doesn't have at all) should have been my indicator of problems to come.

The largest part of honing is problem solving, and first is identifying the problem. So narrow the variables, figure out if it is the razor, the stone or the honer, or a combination.

Eliminate one variable at a time. Tape the spine with 2 layer of tape to replicate the angle that you know works, ink and set the bevel on the 4k. Ink will tell you if you are reaching the edge, magnification will tell if and when the bevel is set.

Make sure the bevel is set. The easiest way is to look straight down on the edge with magnification, looking for shiny spots on the edge where the bevels are not meeting, hone until no shinny spots are visable and the edge is straight, no chips.

Few razors are flat or without defects, use a Rolling X stroke to hone the whole edge. Finish on the 8K, strop and test shave. If you get a comfortable shave off the 8k, and you should be able to, then you know the problem is your Natural Chinese stone. Not all are finishers, lapping and finishing the stone may correct it, which is why learning to hone on synthetics is highly recommended.

Once you get the razor dialed in, keeping it shaving is much easier to maintain with stropping and finish stone.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result… Never works.

All that you are experiencing is normal and will continue until you can maintain your razors with a strop.

Find a local mentor to cut your learning curve.