Razor passes HHT before shave but not after.

I've recently run into this problem after honing my last two razors. Before this point I have honed plenty of razors successfully and I've probably been honing my own razors for at least 7 years now. I've even honed a couple of old warped wedges which would require good honing skills to achieve a shave-ready edge. But I've suddenly run into this problem which I've never had before and I can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong as I haven't changed from my usual method that has worked previously. I'm using the dilucot method with tape on a coticule and then finishing on some natural slate. Unfortunately I don't have a loupe to inspect the edge. Has anyone else had this problem before? The only thing I can think of is maybe I need to re-lap my hones, I'm not sure if that would cause this problem but I wanted to ask here first before I take that step.

But how does it shave?

I apologize for dodging your question (for which I have no answer other than normal edge degradation during a shave), but are you honing to achieve HHT success or honing to achieve a great shave?

The shave is ok I'm not getting any irritation or redness from it but it the razor starts to struggle once I'm onto my second pass. I tend to have to go over the same spot multiple times to cut the hair and it doesn't seem to be cutting it right down to the root either. Then when I try to shave with it the next time it won't cut the hair properly and it starts tugging.

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Originally Posted by TheLateralEdge

Then when I try to shave with it the next time it won't cut the hair properly and it starts tugging.

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Am I correct in assuming that you are stropping between shaves? Not stropping or improper stropping could cause this.

Is it one particular razor?
Seems like razor is not holding an edge which suggests poor heat treat or steel.
The only other thing I can think of is a wire edge, but I doubt you could over hone on a coticule.

The same thing has happened to the last two razors I've tried to hone which is weird, maybe it's just those two razors, I will have to try hone another and see if I have the same problem. I think I might lap the hones as well anyway as it's been a couple of years since I last lapped them.

Obviously the razor isn't sharp enough.

So lets look at this logically. Since you are experienced. Either for some unknown reason your stropping has deteriorated or your honing has unless the hones need attention. I'm assuming it's not a new razor which then throws another variable into the mix.

I doubt it's evil spirits but you never know.

If the edge seems to be breaking down after one pass, the razor may be a candidate for a layer or two of tape. Try that and see if that solves the issue.

I agree with gadavier. It could be bad steel or temper; however, it could just need tape. I was surprised a while back when I couldnt get a razor to take and hold an edge. I was using a single layer of tape and the edge would dull out after a single shave. While talking to someone they mentioned to add an extra layer of tape and try. I did but had the same results. I had pretty much wrote off the razor as garbage. One day while honing one of my other razors, I noticed this razor sitting there where it had for a few months with two layers of tape on it. I figured what the heck and added a third layer of tape, hit the 1000 grit and ran it to all the way to 12000...and wow. now it is a great shaver. The only thing I can think is that the angle was so thin that it would chip or bend the edge before, but the added angle must have done the trick.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Obviously the razor isn't sharp enough.

So lets look at this logically. Since you are experienced. Either for some unknown reason your stropping has deteriorated or your honing has unless the hones need attention. I'm assuming it's not a new razor which then throws another variable into the mix.

I doubt it's evil spirits but you never know.

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I think tbs might have hit the nail on the head. If you have an eye loupe, or some form of magnification check the bevel. Touch it up and shave again and then check it with the magnification again.

Your bevel is not set.

How do you know when the bevel is set?

Hair test are not reliable, because they cannot test the whole edge, they can be an indicator, but if it is not shaving, it’s not set.

You can buy a lighted 30X loupe for 2-3 dollars and remove all doubt.

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Originally Posted by gadavier

If the edge seems to be breaking down after one pass, the razor may be a candidate for a layer or two of tape. Try that and see if that solves the issue.

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I'll give that a try although I've never had to use 2 layers on a hollow ground razor just on wedges, I ordered a 30x loupe so I'll wait for that to arrive and check the edge first like Euclid440 said.

If the edge is breaking down, it usually is, the bevel was not “Completely” set, too much pressure or defect in the steel caused by Cell rot, aggressive low grit honing or too thin a grind angle.

Since you have shaved with the razor, I would suspect, the edge got wiped and was not completely re-set. When you hair tested, it cut hair on a part that was set, giving a false positive test.

Most problems of sharpness are probably due to the bevel set.

Develop an absolutely positive bevel set test technique, looking at the bevel straight down on the bevel with magnification is the quickest, complete test of the whole edge.

I have wiry beard and most razors of mine don't pass the HHT after shaving, unless I accurately strop them.
After seven years I assume that you manage correctly the whole honing process. Then I can think of 2 possibilities:
If those two razors are new entries and you never used before then you have probably met two blades with some softer steel.
If those are old blades that you had already used in the past and the behavior has changed, well be aware that your beard thickness and hardness are increasing with your age and are going to decrease in your latest years after 60-70, it's a natural evolution.

And putting one more guess in the pool... If the razors are old ones, that you honed before, then sometimes that problem you describe can happen.

It's a known problem for the barbers of old.

The solution they used, was to shift hones, use another honing technique, or have another one hone the razor.

Apparently the problem was caused by a long use of the same hone or honing technique on the same edge.

If the razors are "new" old ones, then I agree with the other answers above.

i have 2 suggestions as well, I also hone using a coticule with the dulicut method, I use half strokes during a dulicut, not full X strokes

if you keep "diluting" your slurry to much you're basicly honing on water to long, which can result in a foil edge, resulting into the issues you've discribed

if the affliction turns out to be contagious and starts spreading to other razors in your collection it could be caused by some coticule garnet rolling around on your 'plain leather strop'

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Well this's what I found with the loupe, I'm not sure if their chips or scratches though. Anybody know? Is this just a portion of the blade where the bevel was not achieved? Do I need to hone more into the razor to remove this? Thanks for all the advice everyone so far.

You are not honing to the edge.

Ink the bevel and use a rolling X stroke.

why does nobody ever talk about bevels getting unset or that maybe a razor needs freshening up. You people act as if the bevel is literally set in stone.

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Originally Posted by gfro

why does nobody ever talk about bevels getting unset or that maybe a razor needs freshening up. You people act as if the bevel is literally set in stone.

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The problem with the razor above is that the bevel has not been set in stone. :)

Probably because 95 percent of the problems novice honers have with edges is directly related to an incomplete bevel set.

Once you know how to set the bevel properly, you stop having problems.

It is also 95 percent of honing, the rest is just polishing and making the edge straighter for comfort.

That razor needs a complete (heel to toe) bevel set.

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Originally Posted by gfro

why does nobody ever talk about bevels getting unset or that maybe a razor needs freshening up. You people act as if the bevel is literally set in stone.

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What do you mean by unset? Once you set the bevel with a medium stone, the remaining follow-on work is pretty much just keeping the same shape but removing the scratches.

I mean that I get the idea from some people on this site that the razor should go months and months and months with nothing more than stropping once the bevel is set. My feeling is that the blade gets worn shaving my face during the week and I feel that 3 strokes on a 8k followed by 5 strokes on a 12k or just a 12k is needed.

I think what you need is a decent linen, and it's not a bevel issue. Either that, or the strop isn't doing its job. Or maybe even a subpar razor. If you've shaved with a few and that's the conclusion for all of them, then I think it's a linen or strop issue if the razor is properly honed.

When I started, I honed a razor every two weeks. Not heavily, just a refresher hone. I have a decent razor that I refreshed with a vintage linen only (no abrasives) that had probably 180 shaves on it and when I honed it again (because someone wanted me to test a stone), the sharpness stepped down.

Anyway, there should never be a need to reset the bevel on a razor unless it gets damaged or improperly honed (or if you buy it and you set the bevel on stones that are not flat to someone else's stones).

G, once the bevel is properly set, (the bevel are flattened in the same plane and are meeting in a straight, sharp, chip free edge) and a proper progression, (bevel is polished with finer stones, removing the previous stria, maintaining a straight, chip free edge) it should be able to be maintained for a very long time with just proper stropping on linen and leather.

When a razor dulls prematurely it is not because of the beard, it is from improper stropping. To test this, take a properly honed razor and look at the edge with magnification, now shave with it. Look at the edge again with magnification.

Now strop it, and look at the edge with magnification. When did the damage occur?

Stropping is supposed to microscopically, re-align the edge and microscopically remove some metal and re-sharpen the edge. Lift the spine slightly, just once or hit the edge at the flip and you will roll or chip the edge.

If the damage is microscopic, a strop can repair it, if not then a high grit touch up is required. A full bevel re-set is not needed because the bevels are still flat, just not meeting very slightly.

But first, you have to make sure the bevel was fully set to begin with.

A razor can be maintained for months or longer with just linen and leather, depending on the skill of the stropper. Paste can make repairs quicker and be maintained longer- indefinitely, or if the skills are not there, can cause more damage… quicker.

Keep the spine on the strop, go slow, stop forward motion before the flip and calibrate pressure for your strop and razor. A full hollow will require less pressure than a wedge.

A lot depends on your strop and its condition, stiff or smooth and floppy and clean. I suspect a lot of strops are dirty containing grit, from improper bevel cleaning, causing more damage than they are resolving. A dirty strop is a pasted strop, except the “paste” is varied grit.

You have to do what the razor need, depending on your skills and tools at hand. If all you have or know how to use, is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

Stropping is a skill, way under rated… And really not that difficult to master.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Stropping is a skill, way under rated… And really not that difficult to master.

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Super key point there. Iwasaki made the comment that one of his razors had been used over a thousand times by a barber without being honed, which people took as being attributable to one of his super-hard razors, but he was instead emphasizing that the barber properly used a linen (and indirectly a strop, too).

A good linen and strop, one that will step up the sharpness of a marginal stone over time, is key to never having those days where a razor is "starting to pull", and really extending the life of a good or valuable razor to pretty much indefinite.

The aforementioned razor a couple of posts ago still easily passed HHT at 180 shaves, maybe better than it did coming off of the stones. After a y/g thuri (that was better than my labeled escher), it still took three or four trips to the linen over the next couple of weeks to get the razor back to where it was.

Get shave by Iwasaki and show no pain or kill your self !!!!!!!!!! :jedi: Very disciplined these Kung Fu guys. Just kidding lol

The barber I went to back in the late 40's and 50's once told me that he only honed if he screwed the blade up stropping it

I agree with all the previous posts, however, did anyone consider the while the bevel is set, does the blade have some bad steel in it? I ran into this once and it about sent me over the edge...literally...lol. You may have to hone till you get to some good steel and there are no microchips. Just a random thought.

A razor that microchips will never feel sharp to begin with. Generally, razors that are so poor that they can't be used are a fairly rare bunch. i have had one (japanese even, that said "best silver steel" and all of that stuff) that would shave OK but it never would get keen enough to feel close, no matter what the final bevel angle was or the stone used. It's sitting in my trash can in the basement.

I even tempered it straw to try to knock a little bit of the hardness out of it. no dice.

I guess I should clarify a bit. It seemed that although the blade was sharp, the edge crumbled during the shave and I believe it was from oxidation right at the edge. After resetting the bevel, the edge at the bevel was 'shinier' and held a great edge after that. When it was first sharpened the edge had more of a satin finish to it.

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Originally Posted by JoeSomebody

I guess I should clarify a bit. It seemed that although the blade was sharp, the edge crumbled during the shave and I believe it was from oxidation right at the edge. After resetting the bevel, the edge at the bevel was 'shinier' and held a great edge after that. When it was first sharpened the edge had more of a satin finish to it.

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+1 on your statement. I have a nice razor that was NOS when I got it and the same thing happened

I don't know what would cause that, but lack of polish is usually caused by steel not being hard enough. That could occur if the blank was in the open air too long before it made its way to be quenched in an oil tank.

It would be unusual for anything else to cause a problem where the blade wouldn't take a polish unless it was actually pitted.

I have never hardened and tempered razors, so I don't know what kind of issues they have, etc, but most are ground with a bevel ground on them by machine, and any decarburized material would be removed by that grinding.

A number of things can cause chipping. First is cell rot, once a set of celluloid scales or a cell wedge begins to break down it will eat the steel between the scales beginning with the thinnest part, the edge. Fine rusting on the blade is also an indicator. If it is just the wedge, you will see damage and crumbling on the toe and edge, left unchecked it will spread.

Another common cause is honing with an aggressive low grit stone with excessive pressure. Low grit diamond plates and novice honers are notorious for this. A low grit will create deep stria, even once you polish the stria out the steel, it has a memory and the steel under the scratches can chip once thinned, sometimes you can get a few shaves out of the edge, but stropping will chip the edge.

I have noticed the same thing from newer hard steels, where I suspect the builders used low grit belt to shape the bevel. Usually after removing a bit of the edge with a couple of honings or lightly breadknifing the edge, to good steel it will hold an edge just fine.

With vintage razors, we know nothing of how they lived their lives in storage, often exposed to wild temperature swings from freezing to well over a hundred degrees.

Dear "Edgy" in Uruguay,

Stop using hydrochloric acid shaving cream.

Aunty Jimbo.