H.A.D. = Honing Anxiety Disorder !!! Help!!!

Well, I bought a couple of really sweet STr8 Razors on eBay with the express purpose of learning and practicing how to hone and sharpen razors...

I ordered a Norton 4/8 and it arrived yesterday...

I watched a couple of the Google/Utube honing videos and the honing videos on this forum how to hone a razor... and started grinding away at my Shumate Tungsten...

I'd tried a couple of pyramids and was unable to "set" any kind of decent shaving edge....

Not only that, but after grinding away for a while... what edge I did get was also uneven...so I've decided to stop before I "waste" anymore of a good blade...to scream for help!!!!!

The Shumate was an un-honed "virgin" when I got it... and it just seems such a waste to "destroy" a nice "working" razor as part of my learning process...

I'll probably send the Shumate to Lynn or one of the other "honemeisters" on this forum for a rescue honing/sharpening, but I don't DARE do anymore honing on my own until I get some decent instruction....

I'm really looking for some help, tips and pointers!!!!

Tony

Did you lap your norton before trying to use it?

Uneven in what way?

Ahah... I've heard that term before... and I've ordered the "norton flattening stone", do I have to get someting else? So flattening stone and a lapping stone are different animals? Please explain further....

I used the norton "prep stone" to creat a slurry...and then I just started honing away after soaking the stone in water for 5-10 minutes...

Please explain further what a lapping stone is...

When I say the blade is un-even, I mean that I got a good clean edge started on one face of the blade from heel to point... but on the other side the edge just won't go all the way accross... I've got the edge started going from the heel, but it appears to just taper off as it nears the point of the blade...

The blade isn't at a point where it looks lop-sided, or geometrically or technically uneven, but I want to diagnose and correct whatever it is that I'm doing wrong to that edge on one face....before I do have a REAL problem...or mangle any more material on the blade...

I probably have taken more material off than I should... but I haven't totally ruined the blade yet...provided I get the right help NOW, I'm sure that the situation is rescuable..

I had ordered Lynn's DVD directly a couple of weeks ago...but it still hasn't arrived yet... so I feel really in the dark...

If any one out there is willing to talk me thorugh this over the phone please PM me your contact info...

Thanks in advance,

Tony

Lapping is flattening the hone. I use a sheet of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface. Mark a grid on the stone with a pencil, then soak the hone and wet the sandpaper and swirl it around in a figure 8 pattern until the pencil marks are completely gone, then give it another ten swirls for good measure. Do this for both sides, then scrub the stone with a nylon pot scrubber to get any embedded grit out of the stone.

When I first started I got nowhere but frustrated until I lapped my norton, then I started getting decent results.

You don't need a slurry for the norton. I'm not sure what the prep stone is, I've never used one.

Hmm, thanks for the tip, I"ll try that tonight.....I really hope that was my problem...

I think I saw a post by Tony Miller where he said he "lapped" his stones with Wet&Dry sandpaper 220/600 on a piece of granite...

He also mentioned that he "relieves" or bevels the edges to avoid any stress on the stone...

I was thinking about buying a piece of 1/2" x 1' x 1' granite or marble floor tile from Home Depot or Lowes...

It is scary when you see the edge going off skewed like that... it's not too late, I haven't done any real damage to the blade yet, but I didn't realize that things could go so wrong so fast...or not not go right from the get go. It was definitely a sign to STOP and not go any further until I get things more organized...

Are there any other things that I should be checking for...Is there a honing check list anywhere of things I should keep an eye on or have in place for my NEXT honing attempts?

Also is there a way or method to "correct" an un-even honing?

I guess I should go a little slower... I was just hoping that I could just start banging away at my blades without ALL this prep!

Oh well, live and learn. Thanks for the tip!

All the best,

Tony

Could it be that the razor is not straight? I have a similar issue with a polish razor and I have lapped as described. the thing that gets me is that like tgparker there is a nice even bevel on one side, but on the other the bevel is large at the heel and tapers off towards the toe. My guess is that its technique ie: I'm holding it flat to the hone in one direction and messing up on the other pass.

Once you've got a flat hone that's often what it means. But if the hone isn't flat you can get odd bevels too.

eBay purchases can arrive in all kinds of varying conditions. I like to use a coarser stone to set up the bevel and save my Norton from getting worn down by this activity as well as save myself some time and energy. My Norton arrived in perfect condition for honing.

Evenness all along the edge is essential!
Your hand will naturally produce more pressure toward the heel and the toe will be neglected. I use the Rolling Hone method of traveling the main area of contact with the stone slowly and gradually up the blade from heel to tip throughout the honing stroke. I find it's good to get off the heel pretty quickly.
Your hand will aslo be inclined to add more pressure on one side than the other. Watch how your hand holds the grip in both directions.

X

Well since they say it can take about a decade to get good at honing, I'd say your doing just great! :)

AF, etc, would you say pressing the stone up to a mirror while wet is a good enough indicator it's flattened suitably? (looking for it to stick to the mirror firmly)

I think a mirror would be fine. I think its important to be flat. I know guys get into the hyper flattness realm here and I think that is great but I lap on the kitchen counter when no one is looking and that works fine for me.

I use a x pattern exclusively though, so I am compelled to add that. If you hone straight I would use a glass/mirror.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Mark a grid on the stone with a pencil.......until the pencil marks are completely gone

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Genius.

I already lapped my stones once and thought they were flat. How wrong I was.

Genius.:tu

If you're spending more than five or ten minutes honing a blade, something is wrong. Honing is a progressive process and if it's really dull go to a coarser stone (smaller number grit). Learn to "feel" when the edge is ready to move to a finer grit. Breathe and relax your arm and hand muscles when honing as anxiety will prevent you from feeling the stone's effect on the steel. Also, turn off the radio or TV or MP3 player when doing this so you can hear the steel on the stone. The sound will change as the steel becomes sharper. Do these things and you will be happy with the results.

I now have

2 Belgian (Blue/Purple & Yellow) Coticle Stones,
1 Norton Flattening Stone
1 Norton 220/1K Stone
1 Norton 4K/8K Stone
1 Chinese 14K Water Stone

I got one of the Belgian Coticle stones on eBay for US $76.00

(For a while I was really worried that I had bought a $76.00 Rock!!!

It was decribed on eBay as "a 2-7/16" x 5-7/8" x 1" BELGIAN SHARPENING STONE COTICULE EXCELLENT CONDITION"

By comparison's sake, If I had bought a "NEW" Slate backed Belgian coticule stone of the same size from www.theperfectedge.com, it would have cost me Approx. $100.00, so perhaps $76.00 wasn't so bad....maybe even more since it turns out it was a combination blue & yellow stone.

The top material is a warm creamy yellow tan color, and the lower material is a purple, blue, mauve material. They are in fact two separate pieces of stone that have been glued together to form one stone. When I lapped the stone both materials are able to create an abrazive slurry.

The "yellow" material creates a creamy tan golden slurry, and the purple/blue/mauve material creates a blue/purple/mauve slurry. The purple material seems more abrasive that the "yellow".
Is the bottom purple material really just Slate, or could I have a stone that has both Belgian yellow and belgian blue/purple material....???

Here's the real joke...Today I was digging around a local junk store near where I live and I found it's twin in a box of beat up old hones and stones.... It was EXACTKLY the SAME size and configuration.

The "yellow" part was the same but the blue/purple/ part had some purple in it but was more blue... I bought it for less than 1/20th what I paid for the eBay special...

Is it the "REal McCoy"? Do any of you HoneMeisters have a similar stone?
http://i16.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/95/58/da6d_1.JPG
http://i16.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/95/58/da6d_1.JPG
http://i11.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/95/58/ddcc_1.JPG
http://i11.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/95/58/ddcc_1.JPG

If they're the REAL double stones then it sounds like then I got a reasonable deal for my $76.00 sone, but a I got a total bargain for the junk store Belgian coticule stone at $4.00!

I guess if I averages out the cost for 2 "double" coticule stones for $40.00 each...ok...I can live with that. now All I got to do is learn how to use them...

Also, I've been told that the older coticule stones are better than the "new" ones? Right?

I followed the advice I got from the forum and lapped my Norton Stones, first with the Notron "Flattening Stone", then with the 1000 Wet and Dry sandpaper, then with each other....

Guess what?!? the Norton 4K/8K WAS out of true!!! It had all kinds of high spots and low spots! It was brand new too!

So I guess I'll be getting ready soon to clean up the mess that I made with my two razors ealier this week......

BTW I lapped my two Belgian Coticule stones, first witht he Norton Flattening Stone, then the 1000 Wet & Dry sandpaper, then finally with each other... they both came out really Sweet!

Well, I finally came to the moment of truth... time to hone my 5/8 Shumate Tungsten...

After watching Lynn's video which finally arrived, and the other videos from this forum, I decided to hone my Shumate with the Belgian coticule stone....

First I taped the spine of the razor, then I started the round clockwise and counter- clockwise motions as per Lynn's video and my conversation with him over the phone the other day on the blue/purple/mauve side of the Belgian Coticule.

Then I did the same circulars motions on the yellow side of the stone ... Then I did a very light conservative pyramid with "X" strokes...

I was very careful and made sure I held the razor with even less pressure than beofre!!!

I more or less cleaned up the skewed bevel, and the Shumate passed the thumbnail test....

I gave the Shumate 30 passes on the linen side of my strop and then 30 passes on the latigo side.

The Shumate razor passed the thumbpad test... I'll do the shave test tomorrow.

I was on a roll... I then taped up my Geo. Wostenholm IXL repeated my steps... my GW IXL passed the thumbpad test as well...

Tomorrow morning's shave will be the proof of the pudding, when both razors will have to pass the shave test... but I was pleased by the improvement in the way everything went...

Frankly I think several factors were to blame with my initial problems with honing...

1.) The stones were not true... Yep I definitely needed to Lap my hones...

2.) Taping the spines of the razors... I think that taping the spine improves things generally as well as protects the spine of the razor from honing wear...

3.) Learning to hold the razor with as little pressure as possible, yet still keep BOTH the spine and the edge of the razor on the stone.

4.) Learning to listen to the different sounds the blade makes when being honed...

I'll let you all know how the shave goes tomorrow morning...

Now... if I can only learn to shave!

All the best, and thanks for all the help and advice!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tgparker

...and the Shumate passed the thumbnail test....

...The razor passed the thumbnail test...

...my GW IXL passed the thumbpad test as well...

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Ack!!!!!! The thumbnail test should never be done once the razor has left the 4k hone (or the belgian blue or whatever you're using to set the bevel)! The edge is far too delicate to survive such treatment! Also, all the thumbnail test really tells you is if the bevel is in decent shape, it tells you nothing about how sharp the razor is.

There are other tests that you can use at the higher grits, like the thumb pad test and the hanging hair test, and these don't damage the edge, and are far more likely to give you useful information about the sharpness of the razor.

You need to take the razors back to the blue to clean up the edge, then back up to the yellow to refine the edge to shaving sharp. Use the hanging hair test or some equivalent to determine when it's ready to come off the yellow.

I think it is a yellow coticule glued on slate backing.
Great deal.

Thanks for the correction, I guess I wasn't so clear in my posting...sorry...

I did do the thumbnail test after setting the edge with the "rough" blue stone, and before final honing with the yellow stone and stropping....

I'm a head shaver as well... (I currently use a HeadBlade for the dome) I'm waiting to get my paws on a cheapo shave brush to do my version of the haning hairt test...

Last night, I tried a combo of a "conservative" pyramid with the Norton 4K/8K and 15 laps each Blue/Yellow with the Belgian on my (taped) Shumate Tungsten. I am beginning to get more "shavable" results with the Shumate. I agree that perhaps I could have stayed longer on the Belgian and gotten even better results.

I tried an "aggressive" pyramid (Norton 4K/8K) on my Geo. Wostenholm IXL (taped) followed by the same amount of laps on with my Belgian "natural".

There was some improvment but it's still not there yet. I figure another aggressive pyramid and more time on the belgian should bring my Geo. Wostenholm IXL around.

I also am leaning towards the idea that more time on the (pasted) linen and leather strop also helps...

A couple of guys have suggested some time on a pasted strop with either chromium oxide or diamond paste (.5 and/or .25 micron) to really polish up the edge...

Until I've got this honing right... The "tape" stays on my blades!

I'm mindful that 100 years ago all these guys had back then, was a leather strop, their Belgian "natural" to hone, and their Swaty to "touch up"...

All the best,

Tony

They had chrome oxide too - it was the coloring agent in green paint. My great grandfather had a "green-painted board" that he used to strop his razor on.

So is the chrome oxide used for razors just the basic compound that they would have had then? It doesn't undergo any special grading process? I was just wondering if any crome oxide powder would be about 0.5 grit, or if there is a huge variation in grit size, as i found some pure crome oxide colouring powder, and don't know if i should give it a try?
Nick

I have no idea. Even if it was a larger compound back then, it still would have made an effective abrasive for keeping the razor sharp. It was embedded in paint, not bare abrasive particles like we use today, so this would have reduced the effective grit size. And as we've seen in another thread, even something as lowly as newsprint wrapped around a hone (and probably a board) makes an effective sharpening tool.