Compound magnification

has anyone thought of or have tried to see if this works?

I know the theory behind the compound microscope, where the 10x eye piece and the 4x objective lense will produce a magnification of 40x when you the object focused in.

So so here is the question. Since I don't have the cash to put in for a compound microscope. Not to mention they are illuminated from the bottom rather than on top. Has anyone ever tried putting two jewlers loupes in in series to produce a desired magnification?

i have a 10x and 20x loupe. And bought a usb microscope determining that the scope was useless since the resolution sucks and do better with my 20x loupe. So because of this I was thinking about just buying another cheep loupe and get better optical resolution and more magnification than I need.

Will this work or should I just experiment?

I tried compounding my jeweler's loupe but with little success.

My advice is to get a USB microscope. You can get a good one for less than $100. I think my Veho was about $70.
The plus side of a USB scope is capturing pics of what you are doing.
The down side is you have to have it connected to a PC

A lot of guys like the pocket scope of 40x. You can get these for less than $10 and they work great. The down side is you cannot record.

I use my pocket scope all the time when I am honing. It will show you how the edge is being changed.

Dave

Some companies make 'triplet' loupes. Three lenses together in the canister. I have a B&L 'Hastings" triplet 14x that is like that. I also have another B&L 'doublet' eye loupe, the kind that you stick in your eye socket and hold whatever it is you're looking at hands free of the loupe. It unscrews and comes apart with two different apertures. Together they make 11x IIRC. As far as rigging up something of your own, from two or more lenses ..... give it a shot. Might work.

I got the veho, but I have had little success getting any better of an image than my 20x loupe has given me. So with that thought. What is a good general magnification that will help me look at my SR edge. I've been working on making sure my bevel is established and for looking at the scratch patterns to see if it is time to move to the next grit. And I am of course in combination of the other established edge tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, ect)

I have a B&L stereo microscope that goes to 40x. The kind you describe in the original post, but I rarely bother with it for razors anymore, I originally got it to check tattoo needles for hooks or blunt ends. Anyway, I usually use a 20x or 30x eye loupe and that works well for me. When I use higher magnification than that, the higher I go, the worse my honing gets ....... :p

IMO, resolution is far more important than magnification. Also, make sure you learn how to use the microscope properly; a tool is only as good/useful as it's operator.

Myself, I don't find much use in magnification.

Another advantage of the stereomicroscope is that the illumination is from above. However, lots of people are overcoming the problem of a transmission scope (what OP described) by adding a supplemental light source from above.

Problem with two jeweler's loupes idea is you need it to work as precisely as a regular microscope. Each lense has a particular plane of focus and you are going to have to work around and with those focal planes so you are going to have to experiment with keeping them properly aligned and focused. In order to hold them properly you will probably have to remove the lenses from the loupes.

If you want to play and experiment, then go for it. Otherwise, stick with what others have already figured out with regular scopes.

Well, knowing how to work a microscope is no prob considering that is an aspect of my field of expertise. However, as for what u are saying Utopian about the plane of focus, I was already considering that along with a way to try and keep things steady. I was already playing around with my loupe that I already have and the usb microscope that I mentioned before having and I was able to (difficultly I should say) increase the mag of the microscope by 50%. Hopefully playing around I might come up with something that could even be a little fun and useful at the same time. If not it will not be much of an investment. I'll keep things updated on the results on the attempt when I get the new loupes I just ordered in which only cost me ~$8.

Excellent! It sounds like you are well qualified to experiment and succed with this.
Good luck!

I found this in another thread (apache strata). Is this something you'd like to try?
$10 Smartphone to digital microscope conversion!

Basic optics. You can't just combine objectives to get more mag. Much is involved in matching the correct lens so you get a good clear field of view with proper eye relief. That's how the first microscope was devised.

You don't need much for razor work. A quality scope at 10x will give you all you need to see. it's all about the resolution not the magnification.

Whatever you use, It is the angle at which the light consistently strikes the bevel and edge which is most valuable. an angle somewhat 45º to the length of the blade and a bit higher will tell you a lot. A dark background helps for lighted loupe work and a neutral or black background may help to assure the bevel is to the edge fully along the length of the edge.
A bright light source across a room and looking from the spine side of the horizontal blade as it is rotated slightly around its long axis to see bevel reflections along an edge will tell a lot when you get to know what you are looking at.
~Richard

Here's where I found the microscope link. I'm impressed with the magnification and pictures. I plan on trying to make one of these myself. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...43#post6728543

I have had much success with this loupe. 30x/60x illuminated loupe.

http://www.amazon.com/30X22mm-60X12m...ords=60x+loupe

My favorite, I've tried a lot of the others. It has a long eye relief and adjustable focus. It touches the blade.
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~Richard

The old Radio Shack 60-100X scope (carson 200 Micromax) was popular years back and is still available on line.

It is a simple quick scope for razor use, but they do eat batteries.

Also when using your USB scope try an additional light source, I use a halogen desk lamp. The USB scopes work well but are too sensitive and slow for use when honing. They are good for documenting and photographing and or teaching, so you and the student are looking at the same thing.

Otherwise the Radio Shack scope and the 60x lighted loupe Geezer recommended are the best choices. The 60X can be purchased for as little as 3 dollars.

Radio Shack Scope

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

My favorite, I've tried a lot of the others. It has a long eye relief and adjustable focus. It touches the blade.
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~Richard

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I've used this one alot. Thanks Richard.

Its is great for flea markets and antique stores as the light is some stores is poor to none.

:OT

I think this thread has lost sight of the OP's original question.

Reminds me of an old Star trek Episode where Data is stuck on a planet and he devises a microscope which is about 3 feet high and is a series of lenses probably a dozen or more stacked one above the other. You can do it but you need to know what you are doing.

I spent a night a week for about 8 weeks when i worked for a major multi just learning a tiny bit about lenses. Focal length is the key and inter lens spacing is the answer, but, even with those things right, there may only be a little sweet spot in the middle of the lens at that magnification. A lot of things happen as light is diffracted and diffused through glass and different colors behave differently in a given lens.
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Whatever you use, It is the angle at which the light consistently strikes the bevel and edge which is most valuable. an angle somewhat 45º to the length of the blade and a bit higher will tell you a lot. A dark background helps for lighted loupe work and a neutral or black background may help to assure the bevel is to the edge fully along the length of the edge.
A bright light source across a room and looking from the spine side of the horizontal blade as it is rotated slightly around its long axis to see bevel reflections along an edge will tell a lot when you get to know what you are looking at.
~Richard

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Got it thanks Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

I spent a night a week for about 8 weeks when i worked for a major multi just learning a tiny bit about lenses. Focal length is the key and inter lens spacing is the answer, but, even with those things right, there may only be a little sweet spot in the middle of the lens at that magnification. A lot of things happen as light is diffracted and diffused through glass and different colors behave differently in a given lens.
~Richard

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So true.

You really see it more with telescopes than microscopes. The eyepiece objective can come in all types of configurations Symmetrical, Plossl, Erfle, Orthoscopic, Konig, Nagler,Huygen, Ramsden and achromatic and non achromatic to name a few-har har.

Each configuration has different qualities depending on if you are using low or high power and want good eye relief and color correction and wide angle or not.

There's nothing like looking into a 2mm eyepiece which is smaller than the pupil of your eye.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and knowledge base. I'm waiting for my set of loupes to come in. The set contains 2-10x, 1-20x, an 1-30x so that if anything and I am not going to be able to work I'll at least have more than I need. They should be in by Thursday so it will be interesting to see what happens and maybe to come up with a way to stabilize the loupes at their relative focal lengths to get the most out of this experiment without a lot of overhead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and knowledge base. I'm waiting for my set of loupes to come in. The set contains 2-10x, 1-20x, an 1-30x so that if anything and I am not going to be able to work I'll at least have more than I need. They should be in by Thursday so it will be interesting to see what happens and maybe to come up with a way to stabilize the loupes at their relative focal lengths to get the most out of this experiment without a lot of overhead.

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What you will be looking for is anything but a clean line of bevel from the spine side of it to the very cutting edge. Use reflection to see if there is any secondary bevel near the edge. That is all. Just a matter of training yourself to watch for deviation of colors / brightness across any particular length of the bevel.
Now...To save many hours!!!
One other thing, before you even start to hone...Find a really flat item larger than your razor. Pick up it and your razor with the light coming toward you from some bright source. Check that the edge is perfectly straight or slightly smiling and another check to see it the spine is straight by laying the edge each side flat onto a perfectly flat plate, or sheet of glass or a previously lapped hone. Any light from behind means you will know where to start your work.
Above all, have fun and quit when you start to get frustrated. It does come relatively easy after some seemingly eternal time period.
~Richard

I received my loupes in the mail. And after a day of playing around and doing a little bit more research on focal length, I can say it works. Adding two jeweler's loupes in series once placed in correct distances will produce a decent magnified image that is more than either loupe by itself. Issues that I noticed is getting the lighting at the right angle to the blade to see the scratch pattern clearly, ambient light can make the image brighter and harder to see and some light distortion as the reflected light from the blade goes through the lenses. The hardest thing was getting the lenses at the correct distances. If those are overcome this can work.

Note: it is obviously better to have a loupe or microscope with better mag if they are on hand for better optics and control. This was only for me to see if I was just wanting a little closer look and I only had two loupes to use can it be done not must it be done. And as a final note because of quality and that this is not an actual microscope you will not get to the exact multiplied value of the two loupes but at least when done right at leat 50+%

Oh I forgot to mention because of some of the reflected light distortion the magnified image puts me in remembrance more of a phase contrast microscope rather than a compound light but the image can be clear enough to see if the bevel is set.

They sell them like that. I have a Zeiss which has two lens ganged together so you can use either of the two apart or swing them together and use both.

Could you send a link. I would love to look at it.

Attachment 184514
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

I received my loupes in the mail. And after a day of playing around and doing a little bit more research on focal length, I can say it works. Adding two jeweler's loupes in series once placed in correct distances will produce a decent magnified image that is more than either loupe by itself. Issues that I noticed is getting the lighting at the right angle to the blade to see the scratch pattern clearly, ambient light can make the image brighter and harder to see and some light distortion as the reflected light from the blade goes through the lenses. The hardest thing was getting the lenses at the correct distances. If those are overcome this can work.

Note: it is obviously better to have a loupe or microscope with better mag if they are on hand for better optics and control. This was only for me to see if I was just wanting a little closer look and I only had two loupes to use can it be done not must it be done. And as a final note because of quality and that this is not an actual microscope you will not get to the exact multiplied value of the two loupes but at least when done right at leat 50+%

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You're discovering by trial and error why good quality microscopes are expensive.

You have several problems, the first is that with a single lens you can not create perfect image of anything more than a single point - everything beyond that single point focuses into a small blot rather than a point. So you have to optimize the two lens surfaces to minimize those blots across a whole area.
The second is the chromatic aberration of a glass - minimizing that is hard and expensive materials science and you can never have a perfectly flat spectral dispersion.
Then you add a second lens and you have the exact same issues amplified by the compound magnification, as well as from the additional blurring from the image of the first lens not being exactly where the second lens expects it to be (that's why the housing of the lenses in a microscope needs to be very precisely machined and the cheap plastic stuff is not too good).
And then you have external light because your two lenses are not housed in a dark tube adding noise and decreasing the contrast.

You certainly can make it work more or less, but you will never be able to get anywhere the qualify of image that even a school-level bausch-lomb produces.

Magnification is useless without resolution (no matter how you zoom in on a blob it's still a blob), that's why the factors above that deal with resolution are what matters.

And even with very high quality microscope like carl-zeiss or leica precise focus and specific lighting is critical for utilizing the high resolution across a wide field that they offer.


On the plus side you can learn plenty with a single lens of high quality and modest magnification. Just use fixed high power directional light and move the blade (and the loupe) a bit until you find the good contrast configuration.

Strong light means your pupil contracts and reduces the blurring from the spherical and chromatic aberrations (just like camera obscura creates a clear image, while a big window doesn't). The brighter the light and the smaller piece of the bevel you want to be on focus the less the quality of the loupe matters.

P.S. The extreme brightness of LED allows for an extremely cheap microscope in origami housing made of paper http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.1211 :)

Thank you Gugi,
From the link and the many page PDF, such a "simple" optical device requires a huge amount of study and work to become useful.
~Richard