Bizarre, disturbing honing experience

I bought a less expensive (at a cnote, I won't say 'cheap') kamisori with a western grind. As soon as the enveloped arrived, I tossed in a back pack and went hunting for a few days. I figured I'd hit that between time in the forest.

The first indication was that the whole knife was REALLY bent in a banana shape. When I went to set the bevel, sho' nuff, it was very bellied. BUT...so was my first razor and it's a GREAT shaver. I knew from that experience to expect a long, long session on the DMT red and this did not disappoint.

My son needed to do some sharpening too, so i had a full range with me: coarse, medium, fine, and jnat with naguras. I took this new razor through the whole progression, being totally certain the bevel was set. Not having a strop, or anyone around with hair, I had no way to test it really. Note that I did this same progression with a dull pocket knife and got it popping hairs at the skin with no issue.

I got home tonight, stropped it up and went to shave with it and....nothing. And by nothing I don't mean "tuggy" or "harsh" or "dull" I mean...it wouldn't cut, at all. It literally just skated over the hair. It 'caught' on the against the grain stroke, and would kind of pull my cheek up in a comical sort of way. But it won't cut no way no how.

Have you all ever seen anything like this? Have I missed something super basic????

can you post good pics of the razor?

Tonto no understand?...............Keeeymosabe take a smiling Nippon and makey straight? No work. Banana shape good. Kemosabe learn to swoop razor upon stone. Go to town now.

Two thoughts. One did you look at it with a loupe? Any chance you over honed it and the edge fell apart?

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Tonto no understand?...............Keeeymosabe take a smiling Nippon and makey straight? No work. Banana shape good. Kemosabe learn to swoop razor upon stone. Go to town now.

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Pretty much, but it will be useful to see pics to be sure

Remember, most of the reasonably priced Kamisori seem to be from trade-ins that a large Japanese distributor had. The individuals that owned them had varying levels of experience honing. Also, like American straights, they probably were ground to order with what the owner wanted for a shape.
I have in my meager group a couple that were bowed High in the center of the bevel end to end, one that was sharpened at a angle to the centerline of the blade, and a couple smiling and all could be brought to shaving sharp with time and effort. Not that they even approach the width that they left the forge with.
Get some feedback from the fotos and see where to go next.

~Richard

Sharptonn nailed it again. I think he forgot the part about 19 degrees on one side non on the other and having to do the honing while barefoot, legs crossed pillow under buttox.

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Two important ideas here:

1. I have JORCO that has PRECISELY this same issue with bent spine geometry. It bevel set the same way, and shaves beautifully.

2. Off of the same stone I used here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEtb9k3APYM
In this video there are some lessons on strokes used for smiling edges. I like his videos, they are very informative. Basically with a smiling edge you have two options. Heel leading with a swoop on the end of the stroke and a rolling X.

Rezdog, thanks. But I THINK I got all the smile out of it? Am I wrong?

it may appear that way but the geometry of the blade is for a smile so although you took some of the belly out of the smile the bevel does not show that it is gone. If you set the bevel as though it had a smile it will appear more obvious. If the geometry is built for a smile or even smirk it is not easy to get rid of it and keep it gone, it actually would require you to do some crazy honing gymnastics or uneven spine wear.

I would also watch the tubes posted in this thread. http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ori-panic.html

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Originally Posted by RezDog

it may appear that way but the geometry of the blade is for a smile so although you took some of the belly out of the smile the bevel does not show that it is gone. If you set the bevel as though it had a smile it will appear more obvious. If the geometry is built for a smile or even smirk it is not easy to get rid of it and keep it gone, it actually would require you to do some crazy honing gymnastics or uneven spine wear.

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Hmmm....the only thing that makes me question this is that when I was using the DMT stone, I got a very definite burr along each side. And, I could feel that burr progress from the middle out on one side and then from the two ends the middle on the other. Doesn't that generally indicate that you have a geometry that matches the motion? (in this case, straight up and back).

Progress, sort of. Yesterday i switched to a "known good gone" and relentlessly went after it. I did one round with a"sweeping" stroke as shown and shaved, then I styles it and did straight up down and shaved.

I used well over 100 strokes in both cases. I found the following. 1. In both cases the razor would shave right of the stone. Uncomfortably, but it would shave unlike in the original post.
2. Stropping, in both cases unsurprisingly made the shave much better, but still not comfortable.
3. Stropping on felt with Diamond spray improved the edge somewhat but it was still poor. Nor that using this same home and with jorco and dovo razors, this felt step always degrades the freshly honed edge and I only use it to eek out a little more time before honing.

I can't figure it. Is out possible the steel is just so much harder than a western blade that it just needs tons more strokes? When setting the bevel I noticed it took work, but getting it to burr wasn't an epic enterprise.

Note on the post above. I am texting in the airport and fighting with Samsung autocorrect. Should say I did 100 strokes, shaved, dulled, did another 100 and shaved.
The result would seem to indicate that the toe of stroke I am using isn't the issue. Or, poor another way, I am equally poor with all types of strokes and this blade.

Tonto hate to be negative, but has heard that many Japanese kamisori have hard steel at the bevel and low-grade steel everywhere else. Perhaps Kemosabe has honed off the good stuff and is into the crap? Might not ever work? :shrug: Go back to town now. Ask around.

This doesn't appear to be the case. I am intimately familiar with the design/construction of laminated Japanese edge tools. This does not appear to be a laminated blade. Also, when I tried to bend the handle straight, it was clearly a hardened high carbon steel. The spine and handle aren't a soft low carbon or wrought iron add you would expect to find on other Japanese edge tools. The appears to be no Forge line either.

Ooookay.....an update. I have fought and fought and fought with this blade on different hones until....

I won. I'm not sure what finally happened but, it's shaving great now. Go figure.

Well, it's about time! :D

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Well, it's about time! :D

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Yeah, I've been REAL busy!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Well, it's about time! :D

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By the way, I think I have reached the jnat saturation point. I've got a major wood project coming up...those tend to reignite my passion for alternate honing implements. Still bothers me that the tail of this razor is so bent. I've pondered about freezing the blade into a block of ice, and then using oxy-acetylene to "instaheat" the middle 2" of the handle so I can bang that straight without ruining the blade temper.