Belgian honing progression

I asked this in another thread, but it kind of got lost in the shuffle:

For those of you who do most of your honing on Belgian hones, approximately what is your progression? If you were to cut a fresh bevel on a 1K Norton or sandpaper, would you be able to go right to the Belgian blue, and if so, approximately how many strokes would you do before going to the yellow coticule?

I'm hoping the narrow Belgians I bought will be a good solution for blades with a slight warp, which are a struggle for me with on the Norton 3" wide 4/8K.

I'm just feeling antsy waiting for my new Belgians to arrive from Howard... :)

Josh

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

For those of you who do most of your honing on Belgian hones, approximately what is your progression? If you were to cut a fresh bevel on a 1K Norton or sandpaper, would you be able to go right to the Belgian blue, and if so, approximately how many strokes would you do before going to the yellow coticule?

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It depends on if you've got rounding from the sandpaper. The blue is pretty slow with that. I know you got these narrow Belgians for smileys, warpies, and banana blades, and I seem to remember you've got a solid 1K Norton, in which case you might want to use the 1" surface to eliminate any rounding before you go to the blue.

Dylan,

My plan exactly. :) I tried the 1" side of the Norton, and it worked so well I had to get some narrow hones. So the blue would be polishing the nice edge left by the Norton 1K.

Josh

I have a 6X2 belgian natural and a 3X8 Norton 4K/8K. My normal progression that I have got very good results from is to establish a bevel from the 4K side of the Norton, then do about 40 strokes on the blue belgian, then 25-30 strokes on the yellow belgian (both with a good slurry). Your stones are a little thinner and shorter than mine and I am also comming off the 4K side of the Norton, not the 1K, so you might require more on the blue. Howard told me that he goes more by feel and sound than a set number of strokes. He said that the strokes will feel and sound a little different when the razor is sharp enough to move to the next grit. He also told me that if you are spending more than a few minutes on one grit and not getting results, you did not start at a course enough grit.

Thanks--that's very helpful. I'm hoping that these slower stones will actually help me speed things up a bit, as I suspect that I go through the dull-honed-overhoned sequence a few times with each blade before I get things just right. I'm also looking forward to developing a feel for the edge as it develops--I haven't been able to do that with my Norton, for some reason. If I could get my average honing time down to around 30 minutes a blade I'd be tickled.

Josh

Say it was 100 years ago and the Norton 4K/8K wasn't even invented, and I want to hone my Wade & Butcher Meat Chopper.

All I would have to hone my razor in those days would be my trusty 2" x 6" Belgian Blue/Purple & Yellow "natural" and/or my Swaty (or equivalent) for finishing up or touching up maybe....

The Belgian 2"x6" Belgian Blue/Purple & Yellow "natural" WAS the Norton 4K/8K of it's day! Right?

So, pretending it was 100 years ago, and starting from "dull" unshaveable razor with ONLY my Belgian Blue/Purple/Yellow "natural", how many laps of each side would it take to bring the old meat chopper to "ready to strop"?

Tony

That is some hypothetical you have there lol. There are way too many variables in that question for anyone to give you a useful answer. Dull is a very vague term since there are so many levels of dullness. The temper strength of the steel and also the grind of the razor will also have a large effect on the time necessary to get the razor sharp. There is no magic progression that will get your razor shave ready, but I can tell you that if the razor is very dull then it will take a LOT of strokes on the blue side of belgian natural to get you there because it is not very fast cutting.

You can say that again! :)

Last night, I tried a combo of a "conservative" pyramid with the Norton 4K/8K and 15 laps each Blue/Yellow with the Belgian on my (taped) Shumate Tungsten. I am beginning to get more "shavable" results with the Shumate. I agree that perhaps I could have stayed longer on the Belgian and gotten even better results.

I tried an "aggressive" pyramid (Norton 4K/8K) on my Geo. Wostenholm IXL (taped) followed by the same amount of laps on with my Belgian "natural". There was some improvment but it's still not there yet. I figure another aggressive pyramid and more time on the belgian should bring my Geo. Wostenholm IXL around.

I also am leaning towards the idea that more time on the linen and leather strop also helps...

A couple of guys have suggested a pasted strop either chromium oxide or diamond paste .25 micron. to really polish the edge...

Until I've got this honing right... The "tape" stays on my blades!

I'm mindful that 100 years ago all these guys had back then, was a leather strop, their Belgian "natural" to hone, and their Swaty to "touch up"...

All the best,

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I have a 6X2 belgian natural and a 3X8 Norton 4K/8K. My normal progression that I have got very good results from is to establish a bevel from the 4K side of the Norton, then do about 40 strokes on the blue belgian, then 25-30 strokes on the yellow belgian (both with a good slurry). Your stones are a little thinner and shorter than mine and I am also comming off the 4K side of the Norton, not the 1K, so you might require more on the blue. Howard told me that he goes more by feel and sound than a set number of strokes. He said that the strokes will feel and sound a little different when the razor is sharp enough to move to the next grit. He also told me that if you are spending more than a few minutes on one grit and not getting results, you did not start at a course enough grit.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

That is some hypothetical you have there lol. There are way too many variables in that question for anyone to give you a useful answer. Dull is a very vague term since there are so many levels of dullness. The temper strength of the steel and also the grind of the razor will also have a large effect on the time necessary to get the razor sharp. There is no magic progression that will get your razor shave ready, but I can tell you that if the razor is very dull then it will take a LOT of strokes on the blue side of belgian natural to get you there because it is not very fast cutting.

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Tony has asked a "very" good question.

I think another way to put it would be what did they use to use to establlish a bevel before using the fine Belgian. Escher or other maintenance hone of the day. I've asked this question without result on several occasions.

Did razor manufacurers use specific coarser stones?

I personally have not heard of any but this must have been the case. I find it very hard to believe that a razor maker such as Wade and Butcher would waste time and money paying craftsman to hone thick meat choppers only on a coticule or fine wheel.

What the heck other stone might have been used? Any idea.? Mike B

PS-Howard has mentioned a forgotten stone called a "Salmon Rouge" out of the Belgiam quarries. I believe he said it was a coarser stone. I'd like to know about that one.

I could be wrong, but I don't really think that the belgian naturals were the "Norton stones" of their day since they are and probably were very rare stones. Where are you getting that idea? According to this website: http://pacifi.ca/Temp/BBHistory.html
the sharpening properties (i.e garnet content) of the blue belgian stones was not discovered until 1996/1997. To me this implies that they were not commonly used 100 years ago. My understanding is that barbers used various barber hones to set a bevel and polish them. Medium or course barber hones would be used to set the bevel, then finer hones were used for the polishing. Also lather and light pressure could be used to make a fairly course hone act finer. I believe that there were also various pastes available for polishing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I could be wrong, but I don't really think that the belgian naturals were the "Norton stones" of their day since they are and probably were very rare stones. Where are you getting that idea? According to this website: http://pacifi.ca/Temp/BBHistory.html
the sharpening properties (i.e garnet content) of the blue belgian stones was not discovered until 1996/1997. To me this implies that they were not commonly used 100 years ago. My understanding is that barbers used various barber hones to set a bevel and polish them. Medium or course barber hones would be used to set the bevel, then finer hones were used for the polishing. Also lather and light pressure could be used to make a fairly course hone act finer. I believe that there were also various pastes available for polishing.

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When straight razors were in much more common use so were sharpening services. Plenty of these are still around today for tools, kitchen knives and so on, but I know from experience that they don't know *$%! about straight razors.

Apparently there were also sharpeners who would go around door-to-door offering their services on a weekly basis or whatever.

Most barbers' hones are for maintenance, not cutting bevels.

Now that straight razors are an exotic hobby rather than an everyday tool for private and professional use, we tend to think of shaving skills and honing skills as two sides of the same coin. This wasn't always the case. Think about it: meat butchers and restaurant chefs are expert at everyday "steeling" of their blades, but major maintenance, removing nicks, resetting the bevel and so on is done by a professional – who in turn wouldn't know the first thing about separating the primal cuts from the carcass or preparing a beef wellington.

If any of you are old enough to have read Julius Ceasar's "De Bello Gallico" (About The War in Gaul) in school (Gaul in those days included Northern Spain, France, Belgium, Holland, Western Germany, Austria, & Switzerland) Considerable military, tatical, and political interest was given by the Romans for "provinces" and areas that produced basic, strategic raw materials for war making, ie. leather, cloth, iron, stone, salt, grain, etc... and significant mention was made of Belgian/German mines & quarries that produced stones & cement for road building, fort building, etc... AND the sharpening of swords, arrows, and knives!

I guess it's noteworthy that 2,000 years ago our humble Coticule, Escher, & Thuringen "magic stones" were a vital military, strategic, and political resource.

All the best, guys...

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I could be wrong, but I don't really think that the belgian naturals were the "Norton stones" of their day since they are and probably were very rare stones. Where are you getting that idea? According to this website: http://pacifi.ca/Temp/BBHistory.html
the sharpening properties (i.e garnet content) of the blue belgian stones was not discovered until 1996/1997. To me this implies that they were not commonly used 100 years ago. My understanding is that barbers used various barber hones to set a bevel and polish them. Medium or course barber hones would be used to set the bevel, then finer hones were used for the polishing. Also lather and light pressure could be used to make a fairly course hone act finer. I believe that there were also various pastes available for polishing.

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For a really dull razor you can go to the 1000 and then the 4000/8000 and then the coticule and strop on clean leather. OR, you can use a DMT 1200 which will really reset the edge then the 4000 blue belgian, coticule, and strop OR you can use a norton 1000/4000 then a coticule and strop. I shipped on the 11th so you should have it now or will get it tomorrow. Enjoy!