Edge gone by second shave

I'm having difficulty straying to find out what I'm doing wrong. I honed up my razor. 1k bevel set, 4k, 8k, 16k, crox then latigo. I was very carful watching the previous stria disappear before moving up. I even made sure that I was getting a smooth test shave off the 8k before moving on. And by the time I was done there was no chipping. Had a great shave after honing.

Two days later, was one of the most miserable experiences I have had yet. Before the shave I done 50 on linen and 100 latigo and it started out smooth but degraded very quickly. I should have noticed something was wrong when I started my second pass (ATG) on the neck and I had 3 nicks within a dime from each other. It was very painful by the end and could not get anywhere close to BBS or in my opinion DFS. Especially on my head. It was like it quit cutting even after going again on the strop.

When end I called it quits. I cleaned up the razor and looked at the edge. There was no chipping that I could see (I was using a 45x loupe). But it barely would cut arm hair on the toe and heel but hardly at the belly. It's like the edge just disappeared.

What did I do wrong?

Before I forget, prep for shave 2 was hot shower, pre-shave oil and face lather. The only difference in prep between shave 1 and 2 was: 1. Hot towel rather than shower and no oil. Both had same soap.

Might have"oversharpened" it..

Just a guess here, but maybe rolled the edge during stropping? Very hard to say with out seeing it

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Originally Posted by rodb

Just a guess here, but maybe rolled the edge during stropping? Very hard to say with out seeing it

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What do you look for when you suspect a rolled edge.

I would guess the bevel wouldn't come to a perfect V and it would be bent one way or the other, you could probably see it if you look at the edge (edge on) under a bright light. You won't see any reflection on a perfect or near perfect edge

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

What do you look for when you suspect a rolled edge.

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I have not "rolled" an edge but read that you can hear it catch on a pin head if you gently let the pin slide down the blade towards the edge. I suppose the theory is that the pin will catch on the upturned metal.

As mentioned above, you can check for certain maladies with a bright light and also with a pin. Below is a video that will help with both of those.

I'm assuming you're using Shaptons since you went to 16k. I only do 7 to 10 light laps on the 16k and then strop. Usually you won't need the paste after the 16k.

Glen, gssixgun used to quote someone and I can't remember it exactly, but something to the effect .....I don't have a problem honing, it's knowing when to quit. Keeping that in mind helped me a lot with my honing.

Experiment with a little less and see what you get.

:gl:

Howard :)


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP...%3DXZYFsOP7rBc

Push the tip of a straight pen (not the head) from the spine to the edge. If the blade is rolled then the pin will catch on the rolled part. If the pin just slides right off then the edge is not rolled. Do this in multiple spots on both sides of the blades. Don't push too hard, that pin can also scratch your razor.

There is also the possibility of a wire edge that broke loose on the second stropping.

Just look at it straight down, like in the video. If you see shinny the bevels are no longer meeting, but I guess you figured that out… already.

Stropping, it just takes 1 swipe where you lift the spine while the razor was moving.

20 -50 laps on your highest grit stone, should bring it back.

I’ve had a similar thing happen on two occasions with different razors.

On the first occasion I left a razor at my mother in laws house for a few weeks while I was away, when I returned the previously sharp razor was agonisingly dull. Nobody owned up but I suspect someone got curious about the razor and decided to test its sharpness by cutting things they shouldn’t have.

On the second occasion I was rushing when cleaning up after shaving and didn’t clean and dry the blade properly. Several days of micro oxidation was enough to destroy the edge.

Both of these occurred in the the early months, such that my lack of shaving technique hampered my ability to detect that the edge was not up to scratch. I persevered with the shave thinking I was having an off day, only stoping when I got to ATG and could clearly tell something was wrong.

On visual inspection under magnification both edges still looked good, but the proof was in the poor shave. After a trip back to the 8K both razors were fine.

Since then I am fortunate that I don’t have to leave my gear at other peoples house, I don’t rush when cleaning up and my technique has improved enough that I can detect a dull blade on the first stroke.

Well I after taking a close look at my razor this morn, I cannot detect a rolled edge with the straight pin nor see one under mag. So I'm assuming that I may have had a wired edge that must have came off mid shave, because it started smooth, and possibly increasingly poor technique due to frustration as the edge was getting worse definitely did not help. This seems to be my pattern lately. I can get keen smooth edges, but they don't seem strong and lasting. I have been trying to work on better stropping technique using sound and feel as my guide, trying to follow along with the quality videos found on here.

As a side vent, I find it really frustrating when looking on YouTube for a stropping how to video and what you find is more "watch how fast I can strop" rather than "let me show you how to strop". Sorry that was some more frustration coming out. I don't want the conversation to be driven towards that.

So I guess back to the drawing board to find out how to joint and make stronger edges

Jointing an edge is a lite version of bread knifing. The goal is to straighten the edge first, removing micro-chips, then bring the bevels to meet at the new edge.

First just to test that the edge is micro-chipped, lightly run a sharpie on the edge from heel to toe, like you are trying to cut the tip of the marker, except you just want the weight of the marker on the razor edge.

You will feel any micro-chips. You may want to mark those spots with a small marker tick, so you can check to make sure they have been removed.

Now run the edge from heel to toe lightly on a vertical corner of your highest grit stone, (very lightly) one stroke, do not grind or saw like a real bread knife. You will feel the chips if you do it right. Just do 1 or 2 strokes.

Then do 20, X laps on your highest grit stone and look at the edge to see if it has come back together.

Run the sharpie on the new edge to see if you still feel the chip(s). If you do, 1 or 2 more strokes. The goal is to get to good steel, without having to do a full bevel reset. We are assuming you already have flat even bevels and just the edge is micro chipping or has been rolled.

The edge is very thin and you should not need to remove a lot of steel to re-set the bevel. But if after a couple of tries, maybe 3, and it is not coming together, then just drop down to an 8 or 4k to get the bevel to come back to meeting.

Do not be tempted to use pressure, or you may be back in the same problem. Instead of pressure, do more laps, try to keep the heel on the stone until past the half length of the stone, then swoop down so the toe is in the middle of the stone at the end.

I think a lot of guys do an exaggerated X lap where the heel comes off the stone after an inch or so of travel and the toe come off the stone at the end. This is more of a knife technique where you are trying to hone the curved tip of a knife but you end up with too much pressure on the toe.

With a razor you are just trying to get the pressure to shift across the whole edge. Visualize the pressure point move from the heel to the toe as you move across the stone. It is a very subtle pressure shift from the heel to the toe in a smooth transition.

rlmnshvstr8:
When I first started stropping I chronically used too much pressure, had to learn to lighten up and use smooth even strokes. Slow and steady and without too much tension on the strop.
Then when I started honing I found that I had the same problem, I'm finding that the use of pressure in both cases is a challenging skill to master. Doc 226 has a you tube vid on stropping that really helped me see how to strop.
These are the kind of problems that can be solved by just a short visit with a mentor, perhaps you can find one in your area or attend a local meet-up. The proper use of pressure is very difficult to communicate without first hand, in person training.

It may be the 16 k Shapton if that is what you are doing, not all steels can handle that fine of an edge, others have had the same problem in the past. Redefine your edge and stop at the 12 k and see if that works. As far as stropping videos Alan aka AFDavis11 has an excellent one on YouTube and can probably be found in our library. I hope this helps you and welcome to SRP.

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

It may be the 16 k Shapton if that is what you are doing, not all steels can handle that fine of an edge, others have had the same problem in the past. Redefine your edge and stop at the 12 k and see if that works. As far as stropping videos Alan aka AFDavis11 has an excellent one on YouTube and can probably be found in our library. I hope this helps you and welcome to SRP.

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If it's not the stropping, then Kelly here has hit the nail on the head. I have been an Shapton GS user exclusively for many years now and am their biggest supporter here on the forum most likely. This is why I hone to 16K and then back down in "grit" (not much, but enough) to my Escher. There is "something" about the natural stone like a thuringian that just makes a stronger & more durable edge, I don't know the science about it....it just works better.

Pick up some sort of magnification like a radio shack 60-100x self lit pocket microscope, you will learn a LOT with one as you can see more of what is going on at the edge.

Yep afdavis does have a couple of stropping videos in the videos section here, them and Jimbo's extreme stropping video are what taught me.

Shooter I do have to ask why you don't stop at a lower grit and go to your escher, not that I am anywhere near an expert on the subject but it just feels like you are undoing the work of the 16k.

I am "undoing" the work of the 16K a bit, but not much. Shapton stones have a "feel" that tells you when you are done with an 8 or 16K that is something you need to experience. IMO, they are close to foolproof...as long as you did a proper bevel set. I've played with a lot of stones and combinations to find what works for me. I like what I call a semi-crisp edge on all my razors and this combination really does work on literally any quality razor I have ever encountered.

Going from 8k to 16k and then to the escher also is quicker and less wear on my escher, I want it to last me.

Lastly, I have yet to prove it...but I really have a gut feeling that a natural finished edge lasts longer than a synthetic edge. It's theory I remind you and I don't have any conclusive proof, but I have discussed it with my ole' honing mentor and he agrees...but there is no way to prove it. I've had this feeling for several years, but still haven't come up with a way to prove my hypothesis.

Clear as mud?

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I am "undoing" the work of the 16K a bit, but not much. Shapton stones have a "feel" that tells you when you are done with an 8 or 16K that is something you need to experience. IMO, they are close to foolproof...as long as you did a proper bevel set. I've played with a lot of stones and combinations to find what works for me. I like what I call a semi-crisp edge on all my razors and this combination really does work on literally any quality razor I have ever encountered.

Going from 8k to 16k and then to the escher also is quicker and less wear on my escher, I want it to last me.

Lastly, I have yet to prove it...but I really have a gut feeling that a natural finished edge lasts longer than a synthetic edge. It's theory I remind you and I don't have any conclusive proof, but I have discussed it with my ole' honing mentor and he agrees...but there is no way to prove it. I've had this feeling for several years, but still haven't come up with a way to prove my hypothesis.

Clear as mud?

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Cheers, i wasnt trying to criticise, you have considerably more honing experience than me, and the reduced wear on the escher argument makes sense.
I suppose it is like a lot of what we do, if something works for you the emperical evidence is all that really matters, though sometimes convincing others of your findings can be tricky.
Do you find the same with any natural? and what about naturals and synthetics of similar grits? i would expect a lower grit to be more resiliant as the edge is less fine.

Yes a lower grit in the 8K range is more resilient as you suspect...within reason. You can actually overhone on 8K, however it's not so easy as with higher grit stones. The easiest to overhone was the shapton 30 k, I found only a handful of razors that could handle it. My CF does impart a very sharp edge, but I only use it on my harder blades & can't really comment on a softer edge like a old sheffield