Norton 4k after Chosera 1K ?

Good day to you all. Yesterday i got my chosera stone, brcause i was disappointed by my Norton 1000 grit stone - for me it just didnt work. I am absolutely amazed by the performance of Naniwa Chosera 1000 - it is veery fast and smooth also, my razor could pass HHT after it . But i have one problem. When i normally take razor to Norton 4K, it really passes HHT nicely. For example when i am just rehoning or so. But since i tested Chosera yesterday and today, one problem came up. When i can get HHT at 1K Chosera, i start to work on 4 K Norton and i just feel the edge degrades. It shaves armhair worse and also no HHT, just sometimes in some spots on the blade. Maybe this particular razor doesnt like Norton 4K, but the 4K feels also a lot more gritty than chosera - my Norton 4K is lapped well and before i was getting good results. Now the razor barely passed the HHT after finisher and it is not sharpened well. I dont know what might be the case but i feel like the edge degrades at 4K Norton. Any ideas what this might be? I will try on more razors later, but this really confuses me. I tried to set bevel on this on chosera and move to 4K at least 4 times and still the same.
Thanks a lot.
Filiip

I'm sure the experts will chime in here but I'm thinking that too much pressure may be your problem?


Mike

I really was light on it ... 1 K the razor passes HHT, after only about 10 strokes on 4 k with only the weight of the blade, razor stops passing HHT and it seems to shave hair worse. I tried also circles and a lot of other things on 4 K, but doesnt seem to help. As i say, i didnt have this problem before- i was able to pop hairs easily after 4K

I would not worry about it yet. The 1k is the bevel setter and the 4k is an intermediate hone for sharpening. Obviously you are not going to stop at 4k so go ahead and go up your progression whatever it is.

I cannot cut any of my hair until after I strop so I don't use any hair as an intermediate honing assessment. I used to think that was because I sucked at honing. Eventually I discovered that it was just the nature of my hair.

In your case, it is not that uncommon for hair cutting to be lost at an intermediate grit. You may be popping hairs after the 1k not because the blade is particularly sharp but instead because you have a sawtooth effect on the edge that is catching and then popping the hairs. With refinement of the edge with the 4k the teeth may be reduced (as they should be) to an extent that they no longer catch the hair. What you are perceiving as a regression in the sharpness is likely to be the opposite, so just keep on honing with whatever normally follows your 4k.

Thank you ... I was just disappointed because other honings worked like i said with positive HHT all the way from 4000 and now not, so i wanted to know if it has to do something with Naniwa. The finished edge didnt seem very sharp so thats what i didmt like the most.
Thank you a lot.

The hht is a very subjective test .. I wouldn't go crazy worrying about the hht. The norton 4 k is a great stone.. The true test in a nice edge is the shave test.. I really don't test my hht anymore but when I do I do it after stropping..

It is possible that you don't quite have the bevel fully set. The only thing you have changed is your bevel setter. You are used to the result you get off of the 4k, but a new bevel setter preceded it. If you don't get a good shave off of that razor, you might want to drop all the way back down to the Chosera 1k again.

Thank you, i will experiment with it and let you know ... or i can post some photos from microscope when i will hone some next razor. You are probably right, because after chosera the edge was toothier than after Norton 4k.

If you are using hair to establish a complete bevel set, you are getting a false positive. Your bevel is probably not set, as said.

Get some magnification and look straight down on the edge, if you see shinny spots, the bevels are not meeting…the bevel is not set.

Both a Norton and Chosera will set a bevel equally well, the difference is how they feel and possibly the speed, but performance should be the same.

Use pressure with a 1k, moderate pressure with the 4k and lite pressure with an 8K, weight of blade with finisher.

All you are doing with the 4k is removing the 1k stria and straightening the edge. If you are re-honing you should easily be able to re-set the bevel on a 4K.

Did you remove all the 1K stria on the 4k and are the bevels meeting?

It seems i did removed them i use microscope for magnification and tracking my process or for fast control 42x loupe... No shining or other things. I forgot to mention that this razor was a restore, but i was pretty sure the bevel is set. I might try to reset it on dmt 600 just to make sure . I may try to take some pictures through microscope and post them here.

respectfully, I might add, you might be taking off metal without need. The Chosera 1K should do just fine. Unless the blade needs serious work like chip removal, geometry correction, etc., I don't think it is necessary to drop down below the Chosera 1K.

Correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but that's what I've learned.

Cheers all!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You may be popping hairs after the 1k not because the blade is particularly sharp but instead because you have a sawtooth effect on the edge that is catching and then popping the hairs.

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Exactly,....not what I would want to shave with even though it pops hairs.

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Originally Posted by Siguy

respectfully, I might add, you might be taking off metal without need. The Chosera 1K should do just fine. Unless the blade needs serious work like chip removal, geometry correction, etc., I don't think it is necessary to drop down below the Chosera 1K.

Correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but that's what I've learned.

Cheers all!

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In general, that is true. However, some really hard steels sometimes will lead me to drop down to a 600 or 800 chosera for bevel setting even without any edge repair. I've got them so I use them and they make the job faster, but they are not essential.

Thank to you all, ill try out today. I wanted to drop to 600 just to be sure because the blade had no edge at all because i sanded it .

If it were me I would romance that bevel to set on the new stone. Just to get used to the feel. What's the rush ? Just saying :<0)

My experience with the 1k chosera and the Norton 4k is the same. The 4k seems to degrade the edge.
Santa brought me a Naniwa 5k Super Stone this morning which will replace the Norton in the progression.
Now I need a dull razor to test this out with.

Do not use the 600, especially a Diamond plate. Aggressive Diamond plate and or pressure can lead to chipping of the edge and you will have to remove even more steel to stop the chipping.

More laps is safer and more effective than dropping down in grits. Circles and half laps can speed up the process, finishing with X laps.

Stay on the Chosera with a bit of pressure to set the bevel. Do not move up in grits until you are absolutely sure the bevels are set. It is probably the most common error novice honers make, not completely set the bevel.

Once you are sure the bevel is set, then do 10 laps with light pressure to smooth out the 1k stria then go to the 4K.

Bottom line, hair test are unreliable until you calibrate a hair test for your hair and your razors. Untill then use a non-destructive test, like looking for edge reflections.

So i rehoned that razor today. I dulled the edge and reseted it totally on a Chosera 1k. Then i moved to Norton 4000 - about 40 laps. Then Norton 8000- about 50 laps and there i got a HHT positive but only slightly- i had to move my fingers with hair really close to the edge. Then i used the welsh slate sold as DT on ebay by AJ and the hairs were just popping. Really nice HHT. Then i moved to my Chinese 12 K 50 strokes w slurry and about 60 on clean water. HHT weak. Then i finished with about 100 ôaps on my Charnley forest. Edge much refined under microscope, but HHT only slightly better, nothing great. I am not saying i rely on HHT- i just wrote what happened on every stone. And by the way i am calibrating to one type of hair, so i always test on hair from same person. Photos included.Next time i may skip the Chinese 12 K and finist straight on CF and see what it does. Under the blade is white paper. Blade is the dark part of picture.
Chosera 1000
Attachment 188681
Norton 4000
Attachment 188682
Norton 8000
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Welsh slate
Attachment 188684
C12K
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CF
Attachment 188686

What power is the microscope ? Edge looks pretty rough. Chips & burrs right up tp C12k. Seems to be improving on CF.

I only use a 20-200x Veho scope so if you are at 400 x ignore me. I find it hard to interpret pics above 200x..

I dont know exactly, something up to 200x. I admit there may be mistakes. But after 8k without camera and also with a have seen no burrs or chips so i dont know. Just to make it clear edge is the upper line not the bottom line. The haze on edge wasnt burr, but it was not focused well, it is really hard to take photos with my microscope. I may try to take better photo, but i also have to hone my technique.

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Originally Posted by Rotavator

Just to make it clear edge is the upper line not the bottom line. Yes, yes I know which the edge is :)
The haze on edge wasnt burr, but it was not focused well, it is really hard to take photos with my microscope. I may try to take better photo, but i also have to hone my technique. Looks like it could do witha little more on the mid to high stones to further refine it. I don't think you're far off but if it is not shaving well then you would expect a slight visual change when it does. 2nd last pic looks like small microchip at left

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Thank you, i will try more strokes on another razor today and i will see what happens :)

Way too many finishers, limit the variables. You are making the process way too complicated by adding more stones to the mix. First learn to hone on your synthetic progression, and get a repeatable, shaveable edge. A 1,4,8k synthetic progression is all you need.

Probably none of your naturals are over 8K and each will have to be learned, to squeeze the maximum performance from, you may be going backwards and certainly confusing the results.

Go back to the 8k and put an even edge back on the razor, removing all the other stria, strop and shave. You have flat bevels and should be able to remove all other stria in 20-40 laps.

Photos are blurry, but show deep random stria, from the stones or technique. The bevel photos do not say anything about the edge, except that it is chippy. If you do want to compare bevel photos, mark a spot on the razor and photograph the same spot each time, so now you have something to compare to.

If you are using a USB scope use the software, not the button on the camera to capture the photo.

Forget about hair test, the goal is to produce a repeatable, shave ready edge, not cut another’s hair or even your arm hair. This test is confusing you further, it may be the hair you are using will not be cut by a shavable edge.

Simplify… As said, you are probably very close.

Thanks .. i changed the progression on another razor and made more strokes and this is what i ended up with. I am sure this is shave ready. I will try this out.
Attachment 188786
Attachment 188787

I think my main problem is i am more into honing and sharpening than into shaving :D and i really love naturals and collecting them thats the thing :)

Edge is looking better. Just watch out for the stria that Euclid440 mentioned. I don't know which stone caused them but ideally they should be reduced as you progress.

I think in the learning stage of honing you should always start at the 1k. You will lose a little steel but a hone means the bevel is set. And sometimes, you can be refining the same edge over and over again. Eventually you get it though. So starting at the 1k IMO will train you to hone a razor start to finish

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rotavator

I think my main problem is i am more into honing and sharpening than into shaving :D and i really love naturals and collecting them thats the thing :)

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Ha!
You are doomed and might as well sign up for HAD rehab as soon as possible!

And take the 1K Shave Test while you're at it. Great thread or two on that. It was a breakthrough moment for me.

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Originally Posted by Siguy

And take the 1K Shave Test while you're at it. Great thread or two on that. It was a breakthrough moment for me.

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Ditto for me. Once I got a decent shave on the 1k everything started to fall in place. Far from adept yet but the 1,4,8k test put everything in perspective.

Thank you all guys, i will work on it. ;)