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Has anyone had any experience with this stone? I picked one up at Highland ( http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...OD&ProdID=5530 ) and am thinking of touching up my Lynn-sharpened straight that I mis-stropped right off the bat. :cen My first experience, I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done this.
J.
Nope, and you won't be the last :-( I did this to my first two... It's one of life's little ironies that newbies are the most in need of a professional honing, and the most likely to quickly damage it. I was lucky that I got one shave out of mine before I killed the edge, and that one shave was the most incredibly close and comfortable shave I had ever experienced - I was hooked instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonedangerousli
The grit sounds ok, but I'm not sure how quickly it cuts. Make sure you lap it first (there are like 50,000,000,000 threads on that topic) and round off the edges. After that, just do it gently, slowly and in 5 stroke increments (on each side).
About the stone you speak of. I am the owner of a full array of acceptable Naniwa waterstones. BUT not happy with the finisher (10k). I find it hard to put it into the rotation. Anyway after having great results with a clay based King 6K and the lack of any happiness with the resin based Naniwa. Anyway I bought an icebear clay based terrific stone. Pity it takes you $500 bucks to learn whats already public info.
Could you please explain what you don't like about the Naniwa (I'll assume Superstone) 10k hone? I think it is a perfectly fine (pun acknowledged) hone.
I have two Kings (4k and 8k) that are good hones. They cut quickly and produce a nice edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
Dave
It's a rebranded Kitayama 8K, so not really a 10K. The 10K rating is basically marketing hype - someone, somewhere, claimed that the thing had jnat-like friable grit (never proven, as far as I know) and therefore it could polish up to the equivalent of 10K. Some have even claimed 12K.
I have one of these stones, and find it to be solidly 8K. It's a muddy stone for something with that high a grit, which is generally not great for us razor types. The mud dries quickly, so you're either constantly spraying, or shuffling a little heap of dust from one end to the other. This is time-consuming and of no apparent benefit.
This is not a bad stone, but there's no shortage of better razor stones in the 8-10K range. My Kitayama has been relegated to kitchen knife duty, where its indeterminate grit is less of an issue.
I have an old King Ice Bear 10K, that I have had for years, so I don’t know if it is the same stone, mine is more of an off white, almost yellowish.
It was my go to finishing stone for years, until I bought a 12K Super Stone, also a while ago, it is the Pink one.
My 10K is very similar in performance to the 12k Super Stone, with the 12K just a bit faster. My 10K leaves a very nice edge that can be shaved off of or after a few Chrome Ox laps gives a nice comfortable edge. It is a better edge than a Norton 8K or Superstone. It is a little softish, a bit muddy feeling, but that I think makes it a bit smoother finisher.
Bottom line, if it is the same as my stone it will be a nice finisher.
Now days my go to is the 12K super stone and the gold standard by which I judge Naturals.
If it’s a choice between the 10k and a 12K buy the 12K. If you have the 10K already, keep it and enjoy it, you will not be missing much, Chrome Oxide will make up any difference.
Yes, the 10K will restore you edge, barring any major damage.
Utopian,
Mate, I find the naniwa SS 10k to be a very hard stone indeed. Now lets be clear, I am inexperienced at honing (6 months roughly), But I used a clay based king 6k and I got an edge you could shave with from the 6k. True. Then I go to the 8k to polish, and supposedly the 10k to finish the perfect edge. Not so for me with the Naniwa SS 10k, This problem is 75% poor technique, but if the clay based Ice Bear can give me that extra 25% well I'll give it a go. The Ice Bear 10 K comes with a nagura stone too, so....I'll report the results when I get them. Cheers, Bob
There you go. A softer stone is easier for a beginner to use. It's not the stone at fault but as you say technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
Compared to some of my naturals or even the 20k suehiro, I wonder just how hard the SS 10k really is.
Thanks oz,
My technique seems OK when I use the clay based king in the 6k, getting an edge then even though I use little presure after the 10K superstone the keeness has deserted me. I get there using slurries and only a super light stroke. My logic of the Ice Bear 205 x 25 x 75 10K is that it hopefully will provide a smoother honing experience. Mate if you have any idea of what I'm doing wrong with the nani, go for it. My issue I think is pressure? I try so hard not to put any pressure on the higher grits. I'm learning! (The ice bear comes with a nagura stone)
And in fairness to myself, I have 8 razors in the rotation and the only problem razor is a new age Giessen & Forstoff. that wouldn't cut butter. So to simply put the whole deficiency down to poor technique is a stretch. Never the less, I'm keen to improve the technique. THE 10k icebear hone has enormous wraps. Who knows I may get by without any blood loss....lol. I do, however like the clay based hones. Funny you never hear them advertised (Ice bear) They are more expensive than a naniwa 10k SS, but little info is available.
Cheers Bob
I'm sorry for highjacking this thread since it is focussed on the Ice Bear hone, but I'd still like to get to the bottom of the Superstone 10k problem. If you are having a difficulty with this hone, I'm not sure buying another hone will solve it entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
How many strokes, on average, are you doing on the 8k and 10k hones?
Well that tells me a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
Commonly when people have trouble at higher grits the bevel is not set properly. On a new G&F that is a given unless you really put in a lot of effort. You can do it on 1k but it does take time. I have resorted to a 320 grit stone in the past but there need be no mystery about it. Once you know what your looking at you can see thru a loupe if the 2 sides meet or not. I'd bet London to brick yours don't if it "won't cut butter".
Oz, my reason for getting the clay based stone, was that I used a 6k clay (King) during a honing of a different razor (Not the G & F) and found a marked improvement in the quality of the bevel, hence the 8K gave me a nice shaver. So I thought, rightly or wrongly that given the 6k clay stone did such a good job, I'd look for a stone comparable to it. There are many reasons, I understand that put logic ahead of what I'm saying. But at the very least I've acquired a new softer well respected waterstone that if I can get it going my way, well and good. So I'll test this stone for touch ups on a couple of my collection. (Bear in mind that 6 of my 8 razor collection shave great, with one pro honed and the others by me, so I'm not far at least from getting things right. Other than that mate I plead HAD! I'll only improve by practice, so I study the forums & videos and do my best.
Cheers Bob
I get a good bevel after the 1k-4k and then the 6k king. Then no more than 8 to 10 light pressure on the 8k and the same on the 10. I try to barely have any pressure, but I concede that my lack of experience leads to inconsistency as far as the number of strokes and the pressure needed. Over all though, most of my results are OK. I have serious issues trying to get a shaveable edge on the G & F. I just like the feel of the softer clay stone, seems to get me to the right place. No scientific reason I guess, but whatever works....
If you get no joy send it to me so I can assess what's happening & I can post m'scope pics that may help. Just cost you postage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
I did one on Friday & had to go back to finishing stones 2-3x for it to be acceptable so they can be a challenge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I've looked at every opinion going, probably wasted money. But the thumb pad test I did on the new Giesen & Forstoff. (Notably difficult to bevel set by experienced men), I was thrilled when I later shaved with it following honing up on the 8k hone. Then the Ice Bear 10k. I'm not suggesting anything other than my technique has progressed, and the softer clay based Ice Bear 10k, helping a less experienced honer. But I had a shave with the $100 US G & F, that was a happy moment for me. If I can coax an edge on a notoriously hard to hone razor, has given me so much confidence. Havachat45 of this site, honed my 1st razor and did a superb job, which I judged all others by, told me the G & F was hard to get an edge on, but once you got there it would hold the edge....so far so good! I feel like a kid with a box of lollies. Once again gentlemen thank you for you counsel. Bob
Different strokes for different folks I guess, but I will be sticking to the naniwa stones. Personally I think they are a class above the clay based stones. I'm glad you are sorted and happy :)
Our moderator downunder here onimaru55, describes the softer nature of of the clay based stones and how they can be easier for starters. I agree with him, but I will gain more experience and no doubt the naniwa 10k will be a good stone for me in the long run. The Icebear, I'd describe as luxurious, 205 x 25 x 75 on a sturdy wooden base and you get a nagura stone as well. I like a little slurry so that helps me too. So, the icebear is working for me at the moment, thats not to exclude the nani. But they seem hard as is possible, so when I used the King 6k (Clay base) it was smooth, and got me a bevel that the 8k could enhance, thus the progression to the Icebear, and I like it. Even if it needs more often truing it's a 25 m deep stone and most certainly will outlive a 10mm. I'll keep the commentary up, but at the moment of my 9 razors, there is not one I'd not shave with, equaling happiness for a person with 7 or 8 months on the stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1011
Cheers, Bob
The hard stone thing comes from using one Jnat with various nagura . Imagine doing all your honing on the Ice Bear it would lose shape quickly.
With the pressures we use on razors a soft stone is no disadvantage at end game & only an issue at 1k - 4k if you are honing several razors at a time. Even then you will be using your diamond plate for slurry so it will get trued anyway, just will take more lapping than a hard stone.
I've only used the Nani 12k & would not call it hard . Maybe the 10k is harder for some reason.
Good morning oz, sorry to bother you over some fairly trivial issues. I have gotten smooth, shaveable results from finishing with the Ice Bear 10k, using the nagura stone to create a slurry. I am a fairly avid student of the art and I keep my eyes open to every bodies techniques, so come in Murray Carter, who swears by his backward honing style seems happy with his results. Your opinion mate?Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I have a fairly average Robert Klaas solingen 5/8 that is Ok to shave with. I was considering breadknifing it and using Carters techniques only. I'm scared that it may work! If I am on the wrong path please tell me so. He also disagrees with slurry, your opinion? I tried to get a 12k nani but none were out there in the retail sense, and I figure that a nani 10k and an Ice Bear 10k get the job done well enough for me. (Until HAD returns), next on my bucket list is a fine natural....dream on. Cheers Bob
Hi Bob ~ Carter's backward honing was tried by many of us when it surfaced.. I was not one who tried as I had no need. My mousetrap works just fine so can't comment first hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski
I suggest you try it yourself & act on your findings. It may be something that suits you or not. Experimentation is the best teacher.
I never disagree with slurry. No point in arguing with powdered rock. It never listens. :p
Again just try & see what works for you. Slurry can be good or bad depending on the stone. It's not so cut n dried.
Hi Oz,
Mate I gave Murray Carters' technique (No I didn't strop on newspaper!) and for him it works, but like quite a few on our site it Does not work for me. I returned it(test razor) to it's prior shave - readiness state without much worry. So, we all have our idiosyncrasies but, I like a little diminishing slurry (As per Gssixgun), and going backwards, I save it for removing a burr etc. No real use for me. Each to their own, but I'll stay with the way that 'our' type works. (In general-conventional )
Cheera Bob
Vive la difference ! :)