How long would you say it takes to learn to hone? I'm gonna order some stones tomorrow and and awaiting a pasted strop from Tony. I'm hoping to get honing tech down in time for the next giveaway so I can donate a piece. Please, all opinions welcome.
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How long would you say it takes to learn to hone? I'm gonna order some stones tomorrow and and awaiting a pasted strop from Tony. I'm hoping to get honing tech down in time for the next giveaway so I can donate a piece. Please, all opinions welcome.
It really depends. You may get your first blade shave-ready in under an hour and it may take you a couple of weeks of frustration before you get there. A big advantage is knowing what shave-ready is. I didn't have that advantage until X generously invited me over for a honing session. Some blades were still difficult to get over the hump with slow-cutting Japanese slip-stones, but I got there eventually. Norton was a technical leap of the millenium for me.
Depends on a lot of factors, not least of which is knowing when to stop. At what point would you consider yourself "knowing how to hone"? When you can shave with your own edges? When you can beat the Feather? I've been doing this for a bit over a year and I'm still learning, though I was shaving with my own edges pretty quickly. Even Lynn, whose been honing and shaving with straights for decades, has indicated that he is still learning new things about honing.
I thrashed around for several months before I realized that my honing skills were getting decent. That's because I was stupid and didn't get a shave-ready razor to begin with. So I'm not really sure when I had my first success. :)
Another good idea that would shorten the timeframe is working with a razor that has a properly set bevel already. Learning to set a good bevel takes time, and when you're starting out it's hard to figure out if an edge is dull because you overhone it or because it needs some time on the lower grits, like 1K or so.
I've thought about offering "hone ready" razors that have good bevels but still need to be polished before they're shave ready. I'd be willing to work with anyone who's just starting out with honing...
But to answer your question directly, I'd say a couple of weeks to a month seems like a reasonable average. Some take a lot, lot longer. :D
Good luck,
Josh
I agree with Josh, having a bevel that is already set makes the first honing go a bit smother. The first razor I honed was the Dovo 5/8 that I got from Tony. The bevel was already properly set, so it was really just a matter of trying to get it back to shave sharp. Took me about 30 minutes or so if I remember correctly. That isn't fast though, the edge wasn't that dull to begin with, and I actually made it worse before it got better.
People here say that knife sharpening experience wont help when it comes to a razor, but I disagree. Yes, the technique is very different, but you are still sharpening an edge. If you have sharpened knives before, then you have two things down. You can gauge how a edge is developing, and you know how to steady your hand movements. Just my humble opinion.
Matt
"Steady as a rock."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentriv
Sheriff Bart
"But I shoot with this *shaking violently* hand."
The Waco Kid
Funniest movie of All Time
This is interesting, Josh. While a good bevel is definitely all-important, I tend to think of high-grit honing as trickier because of the importance of a very light touch. With the lower grits a little pressure evenly applied is fine. I use the magic marker and if it wears away evenly along the length of the blade, I tend to think I'm doing ok on those lower grits.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
On the other hand, I think I might have the all-time record for slowest learner on the hones...around 8 months or so, though admittedly off and on...and there's some razors that are still giving me a hell of a time (all quarter hollows) so I wonder if I'm too casual in my approach to the 1k/4k.
I'd welcome feedback as to what you think is trickiest or most crucial about low-grit-honing. And if you have something to say about bevel-setting on 1/4 hollows, that'd be just gravy.
Curtis,
from what I hear everyone is having harder time getting these well honed. I'd choose one with a good grind geometry and no warps and stick with it, as many sessions as needed. Do they pass the HHT?
The 45 deg approach on the hone does helped me a lot (I thought you already do this but just in case added it here - it can help someone else reading)
Good luck
Ivo
Dylan,
Well, true enough. It's all tricky. :) For me, I spend most of my time on the 1K and 4K hones. If you do things right there, a short pyramid will take you to shave-ready.
I think there's a difference between shave-ready and maxing out the potential of the 8K, which is where the ultra light touch comes in. I'm not there yet, but I can get a nice shaving edge off the 8K without worrying too much about using light pressure.
I also think we tend to skip over the lower grits and end up spending tons of time on the higher grits to make up for it. I get the best results by making sure the edge passes the thumbnail test off the 1K and the HHT off the 4K. That's not always possible, but it's the goal I shoot for.
The magic marker is great for checking the evenness of your strokes. Just make sure that your bevel goes all the way to the edge before you jump up in grit--in other words, you should be looking to max out the sharpness on each grit before moving up.
But hey, you've been at this about as long as I have... :)
Can you give more specifics about your quarter-hollow issues?
Good luck,
Josh
No, they don't pass the HHT. They shave OK, but not great. I can do laps and laps – like 50, say – on the coticule and they just don't even seem to change – they don't even get overhoned. They just keep cruising along, steady in their mediocrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by izlat
I've never done that 45 degree thing on low grits, only high. I'll give that a try. Do you X while going at 45? It always seemed to me that both approaches combined would produce a very shallow angle of scratch mark...
Yeah but you blasted past me way early on man.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
I've got an old Joseph Elliot and a Wacker, both 1/4 hollows, and a TI almost true wedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
The Wacker came shave-sharp from John Crowley, the TI super-shave-sharp from Chandler. So I have no doubts about the potential of either; the TI in particular gave me the closest shaves I've ever gotten period. These were my first two razors, and I was hesitant to do anything to them so I let them go too long without refreshing their edges. Now I have the balls to hone when I need to, but I'm not really getting anywhere with these.
The Joseph Elliot 1/4 hollow was a a rusty-as-hell ebay junker that I cleaned up pretty well. I can now get a decent shave with it.
None of these is particularly challenging in its geometry; all have a very, very subtle smile (think Mona Lisa) and no warping or anything I can see.
They're all about the same now; they shave fine with the grain, fairly uncomfortably against it. I tend to neglect them in favor of my vintage fillies, which i've found remarkably easy to maintain and in most cases hone. Every other Sunday or so I'll get out my coticule and my Tam O'shanter and try everything I can think of with the Wacker, the TI and the Joseph Elliot, and they just pretty much stay where they are. I don't even get them overhoned; discouraging as that would be it'd at least tell me where I was.
Thanks guys.
I have a wedge that passes the HHT but I still think it needs lots of work before I take it to my face :) - of course, HHT is very subjective, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
I definitely recommend the 45 for the lower grids.
X or no X - I do both. Going on the feel of the edge, basically. I *think* the X gives me better results when I begin the process but is certainly more involved that the straight motion. However, on the 4K final stages, it's easier for me to just use the weight of the wedge and push / pull lightly without X-ing. Basically, the wedge is heavy enough to offset the scales hanging out, most of the time. So I just lay the blade 45 on the 4K without any other pressure for several laps without X to get the max of the hone. When I say easier - it's just that, not better or anything. I do use X on my polishing hones (thay are narrow, and I actually prefer them this way) - but it requires more attention and care from me.
Now, after all this - let me make it clear that I am not a honemeister
Cheers
Ivo
You have a lot of pressure just from the weight of the razor. This pressure causes the grit in the hone to deform the edge more than a lighter razor because the abrasive particles get a deeper bite and warp the edge as they gouge in to the fin and down the bevel. This is exacerbated by the smile: even a slight smile means the hone is only touching the bevel at a very narrow range.
You're gonna have to compensate for this somehow. The 45 degree angle is one way (by giving the abrasives a slower glancing approach to the fin), simply slowing down your stroke (way down) is another, supporting some of the weight of the razor is another (angle the scales back a bit), and going to a slower hone (maybe boron carbide paper or chrome oxide paper on glass) is yet another. You can also use something that is more lubricating than water, such as a thin oil like kerosene, on your hone.
Thanks Michael. This is the best and most detailed explanation I've ever read about why wedge grinds are more challenging. I always just thought it was "well, you're removing more metal."
What you say about how much extra weight is being focused on the edge really makes sense and goes a long way to explaining the 45 degree angle.
Recently I've found that slower is better for getting the really fine edge. With smiling razors I have the best luck using a fine barber hone held in my hand. It makes it easier to keep ultra light, even pressure, and the hone is slow enough that it doesn't punish you for a little mistake.
I haven't received my coticule yet, but it should be arriving any day. I got one that's 1.5 inches wide, because narrower works better for me on smiling and warped razors.
Josh
I think it's high time that we voted Michael a Honemeister. Yes, he doesn't offer honing services but his understanding and skills certainly make him one. And don't get me started on his willingness to help peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
Back to honing: I also do slow down when I feel I need to but was a bit ashamed of it because I thought the good guys go fast fast fast :o )
The slight lift to use less than the blade's weight - I seem to do this only towards the last several laps, if at all
Cheers
Ivo
Hear, hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by izlat
Nope, not a honemeister. no way no how. honemeisters have to be able to get razors sharp themselves, not just be able to tell others how to get them sharp.
Edit: On topic, a good way to visualize what's happening at the edge when you're honing is to take one of those pink trapezoidal faber-castell (or was it eberhard-castell) erasers and try to "hone" it on a wood rasp, a file, sandpaper etc. Try it both edge-forward and edge-trailing. Then try doing the same thing to a more brittle tan rubbergum eraser. Then try it on a piece of soft unhardened rubber to see why zeepks won't get sharp.
I'm not sure this edge-deformation model is really correct (hardened rubber doesn't "flow"), but it seems to do a good job of explaining why slow-cutting natural hones like the arkansas, tam o'shanter, and coticule seem to punch above their grit rating. And why diamond seems to leave a bad-feeling edge. And why abrasive strops seem to eventually weaken the edge. And why microchips occur and how to avoid them. And, umm, why the newspaper trick is (a) slow and (b) gets so sharp.
I started to get a pretty good feel for it after about 4 years. I, too, vote for some one-on-one training.
With barber hones, I've found that it makes honing tons easier to slightly cup the hone and tilt it ever so slightly up maybe 10-15 degrees, so that when you hone, your razor is angled upwards with less of the razor's weight bearing down on the hone. It's allowed me to have a better touch on putting edges on my razors.
Yup, I do the angling thing too. As I get to the final strokes on the hone I may wind up close to 75 degrees or so. I do the same thing with the Arkansas and Shapton hones - the translucent arkansas does beautifully with a high angle on the hone and a very slow (1/2" per sec) stroke. Can't do the tilty thing with a puddle or slurry hone unfortunately. At least not without making a mess.
Learn to hone? It took me a long time to both develop the "feel" of honing and to learn the various techniques that can be used on the different razors. Learning how to evaluate an edge before I started honing and then selecting the most effective tools was a big step for me. YMMV.
I'm still learning.
I was able to refresh a close edge imediately. It took me a few weeks to get decent enough to put an edge on a dull razor, and a few months to get good at setting a bevel.
X
I use the same technique with barber hones, and it works wonders. Tilting the hone also makes it easier to adjust to blades that are less than straight--like smiling blades.
Josh
Sure - one more vote for angling the hone. I do this with even with my Escher and the slurry runs a bit...
I find it's just too unnatural to hold the hone otherwise (horizontal) in my hand
Cheers
Ivo
:OT :) Well, I can't just say we're going off topic and be nice, because I have to have 10 characters to make a stinking post. So I'll ask.... but keep in mind I'm not really asking.... I just need 10 characters but;
How does angling the hone change the amount of time it took you to learn?
The hardest thing for me to learn was keeping the pressure really really light on those last dozen laps. Angling the hone "solved" that problem for me in the early days and enabled me to get a shaving edge much earlier in the learning process. Now that technique is just gravy, but in the early days it was a critical success factor.
Excellent! The big moments that occured in my learning curve, and then theoretically altered the amount of time it took to learn were:
Lapping the damn hone
Learning a good stroke technique
Assessing an edge correctly
Buying a microscope
Being patient when honing
Seeing the value in thinner hones
Learning the value in slower hones
Learning the differences between stainless and carbon
Learning how to hone a singing razor
Learning that every hone is different beyond just the grit
Understanding that grits have a natural speed
Learning when to use pressure and when not to
Learning that stropping was a part of honing
Learning that scale position is important
Learning that less pressure is more about anti overhoning than edge lift
Learning when to stop honing
Figuring out how to judge minor overhoning
Developing a new set of ideas behind the "finishing" process
But then again, these didn't change the time it took to learn.