confused about honing stones

I am going to try my hand at honing some of my straights. I already have the Norton 4K/8K. I read somewhere the edge of the stone should be beveled . What is the best way about this? Also I am considering getting a finer stone to get a polished edge. I have read about belgian coticles and eschers on here. My question is do they both serve the same purpose? Is one more desireable than the other? And where do the Thuringen stones and Hunesruck stones fit in? Are these last 2 stones a variation of an Escher stone?
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Del

A really useful document for the library would be such a side by side comparison of the various types of stones and how they fit in together, usual uses, characteristics etc.

Any of the honemeisters want to dive in here?:bow

Del,
Instead of beveling a stones edge, and I thought the Norton was actually sold this way, one should slightly round it. A bevel on the stone protects the very edge of the stone from chipping if it gets bumped against something. It does nothing to protect the razor which will contact the hard corner and possibly chip itself. A slight rounding will result in no hard edge for the razors to inadvertantly nick itself on.

For the most part the Norton is the workhorse tool for establishing a bevel and keeping a razor sharp over the long haul. One can go right from the Norton to a hanging strop and then shave. Many take an intermediate step. Here things vary. A barber hone can be used except they tend to be small and unless a well known vintage brand, or one experiemtns you never know just what grit it is and where it fits in. A pasted paddle is another option. Mild abrasives on a leather or wood surface bonded to a hard paddle. This requires an easy to learn stropping motion but may in time slightly round an edge requiring a trip back to the Norton.

A Belgian coticule is another good choice too. It is a natural stone, chock full of little garnets which provide the cutting action. They have been around for well over 100 years and can be found from Howard at www.theperfectedge.com The Escher stone is another similar choice. While different from the coticule it works much they same and for the most part will cut the same and give the same level of polish. The vintage ones are somethimes found on eBay and I often have NOS Thuringens which are the same stone. The Hunsruecks are a little different but have a similar makeup. They are easier to find (when shipments don't get held up) and are an economical choice. In tests from a few customers they cut very similar to Belgians as well.

I myslef use all three types of stones, Belgians, Eschers and Hunsruecks.

Tony

Tony, I double checked. You are right. My Norton did come with bevel edges. thanks for clearing things up about the honing stones. I looked at your website this morning. I believe it stated you are still waiting on your shipment of Hunsrueck stones correct? Do you think you will have Thuringen stones to sell in the near future? Thanks for your help Tony.
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Del

The supply is hit and miss. I've got 35-40 stones somewhere between Germany and here but no idea when they will arrive. I'm picky about what I will buy and this has slowed supply greatly.

Often members here have stones for sale privately and Howard may have coticules in stock right now as well. Any are good choices so no need to wait for a certain one if you need a hone now.

Take care,
Tony

Good Morning all,

I'm curious. I went to the web site with the belgian coticules and noticed that the highest grit was 8K. Wouldn't the 4k / 8K Norton stone be the same? Wouldn't I want to go to the higher grit...like that Japanese 12K grit stone?

From reading different postings on this forum and watching Lynn's dvd it is my understanding that these yellow belgian coticles cut much finer than a Norton 8K. If I have understood correctly they are considered the equivelant of about 12K. At any rate they get used by members here to put a polished edge on their straights after using the Norton 8K. Hopefully on of the honemeisters will post a reply to verify this and add any needed information.
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Del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac

I'm curious. I went to the web site with the belgian coticules and noticed that the highest grit was 8K. Wouldn't the 4k / 8K Norton stone be the same? Wouldn't I want to go to the higher grit...like that Japanese 12K grit stone?

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The difference is between technical specifications and practical application. they may officially claim that the coticule is 8k, but is generally agreed to be about 10k and a slow cutter, so on par with a 12k waterstone in action.


X

Just lay the razor flat on the hone. The spine will dictate the correct angle for the blade. Avoid lifting the spine to get a bevel as this will ruin your shave. The answer to your question is that the coticules will do fine for you after a Norton 4k/8k and they are plentiful. Eschers and thuringians and japanese waterstones are also out there with somewhat limited availability and can be pricey.

Howard,

I called you a few days ago regarding a yellow coticule and wanted to thank you for the time you spent trying to educate me.

I had already ordered my 4k/8k norton water stones, and a 12k kitayama and they arrived yesterday. The 4k/8k didn't have the edges beveled so I guess I'll have to sand them down.

Should I use the coticule in place of the kitayama?

I have the linen side of my strop pasted with the TI paste.

All the conversation here seems to be on the relative merit of Belgian and German natual stones used with water, some Japanese water stones, and the newer Norton artificial water stones. Can some of the cognoscenti here tell this tyro why there is so little dicussion about what I thought were the marvelous razor hones from Arkansas? And if it's a case of the old stones worked so well but the new stones aren't worth a pinch, what is the difference and how significant is it?

Much obliged

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac

Howard,

I called you a few days ago regarding a yellow coticule and wanted to thank you for the time you spent trying to educate me.

I had already ordered my 4k/8k norton water stones, and a 12k kitayama and they arrived yesterday. The 4k/8k didn't have the edges beveled so I guess I'll have to sand them down.

Should I use the coticule in place of the kitayama?

I have the linen side of my strop pasted with the TI paste.

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Yes the coticule should be used in place of the kitayama. Use one or the other.

The Eschers are Eschers, thuringians are thuringians, and Hunsruecks are Hunsruecks. They are not the same stones and will give different results on different razors. Tony Miller has written about this on his website as I have on mine about the Belgian Blues and Coticules. I have the above stones in my collection and have used them all at one time or another on different razors. At the risk of sounding self-serving, people eventually end up buying a coticule and become happy people. They've been "the standard" for a long time. A Norton 4k/8k doesn't need to be beveled but I like a bevel on all of my personal stones so I bevel them by holding them on edge on a DMT Coarse continuous diamond stone in the kitchen sink and just rub the long way and rock a bit side to side to help round. The reason one finds natural stones almost always beveled (or chamfered as I prefer to say) is that it reduces pressure flaking. Artificial stones aren't usually chamfered as it's an additional manufacturing process (translate "adds cost").