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I have never honed but have watched a few videos and am very interested.
One thing that has always confused me, when watching it seems while the toe end of the razor is in constant contact with the stone, the heel end seems to spend little to no time in contact with the stone by comparison. Wouldn't this lead to a sharper towards the toe of the edge than at the heel creating an imbalance? Is there any reason you can't just keep the entire edge in contact instead?
Please excuse my ignorance.
Comes up quite often :)
Going straight up and down the hone WILL cause a frown
The X stroke when done correctly isn't quite as exaggerated as you think, really the edge moves evenly and equally across the hone,, honest it really does if it doesn't then the edge will have issues..
There are MANY different strokes, the only thing they all have in common is that they are all designed to keep the edge in even and equal contact with the hone...
Now I'm REALLY confused. If the toe is in contact 100% of the time and the heel is less than 10% of the time then this is not equal????? UGGHHH maybe the videos I'm watching they are doing it wrong?? Or I'm not seeing it at the right angle?
As soon as steel meets hone this will not be as confusing, you are making a ton of assumptions that are simply in error...
above:
The Toe is NOT in contact 100% of the time nor is the Heel 10%
The entire edge must move across the hone evenly and equally,,, this is not making sense because you haven't watched the ripple of water move across the hone :)
Ok I'll take your word for it :) Thanks
RedGladiator;
I had a lot of trouble understanding this also. I did quite a lot of thinking about it and it finally clicked for me.
"I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you":D It's good that you are questioning it. When you get it, you will really get it.
Glen explained this to me in person and it was still many months before it really made sense to me.
Once when I asked a very experienced hone master about this he replied that I was making an age old argument that comes up over and over again. I responded; "Well, I'm carrying on a great tradition then". I will say that the explanations that I got were not very satisfying to me, but after a lot of thought combined with time on the rocks, I turned into a confirmed X stroker.
Is the blade not held completly flat against the hone then?
That is the jist of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedGladiator
What made it sink in for me is how I hone a smiling blade. On a smiling blade there is a continuous roll from heel to toe with only a small area of the edge in contact with the stone at any time. Now think of a blade with a slight smile. A razor like this often appears straight when viewed in profile, but when you sight down the blade edge you can spot the smile. This razor hones just like the more pronounced smile does. Now consider a blade where the center of the blade is dead straight and there is a slight smile at the toe and heel. The toe and heel hone just like any other smiler. When the straight part of the edge lies flat on the hone the pressure is spread over the whole contact area, but it is a bit higher on the heel side because it is closer to your hand. The X stroke allows this pressure point to move down the edge the same way the contact point moves when honing a smiling blade. I think this is what Glen was talking about with watching the water in front of the edge.
Glen say's "Always hone toward a smile". I make razors. When thinking about all the possible geometry problems that cause honing headaches I realized that most of them become irrelevant if the blade has a smile. If you hone as if the razor has a smile, the razor tends to develop one. Even if it is so slight that you have trouble seeing it.
That's the best I can do of explaining it. I hope it helps.
If the entire length of the blade fit completely flat against the hone during the entire stroke, then yes it would be fine do a straight stroke and there would be no problem. In reality, most blades do not make that contact along the entire length of the blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedGladiator
In simplest terms the stroke does form an x pattern when tracing the path of the toe along the hone. In reality though most of the work is done with a subtle rolling x stroke.
This is the way to envision it.
When you are honing, you should (most of the time) have enough water on the hone so that you can see the water in front of the blade. What you are looking to do is to push that water in front of the blade. When the blade fails to make full contact with the hone along the entire length of the blade, you will see that the water is only being pushed by some parts of the blade. Those are the parts of the blade that are making the best contact with the hone. Call the water that is being pushed by the blade the wave.
The rolling x stroke is the altering of pressure that is done to initially have that wave be at the heel of the blade. As you pointed out, the heel is not on the blade for the entire stroke, but the initial positioning of the pressure on the blade ensures that it is the heel that is making best contact with the hone. As the x stroke continues, the wave progressively travels from the heel at the beginning of the stroke all along the length of the blade to be at the toe of the blade at the end of the stroke.
This is why some people insisted years ago that a narrow hone was necessary for a smiling blade to properly perform the rolling x stroke, but this was wrong. However, it did force people to learn how to do the rolling x stroke properly in order to maintain proper blade to hone contact on the narrow hone. However, you can create a virtual narrow hone to perfect your own technique.
Draw a parallel line one inch from the side of the hone closest to your honing hand. If you hone with your right hand draw the line one inch from the right side of the hone. Now, when you hone, ONLY worry about the wave moving within that one inch wide region of the hone. Make sure that the wave moves uniformly from the heel to the toe. The pressure changes that you do to maintain the wave in at least that narrow region as the blade traverses contact with it from heel to toe is the rolling x stroke.
After you figure out those pressure changes, you no longer need to do as drastic of an x stroke. You can keep the heel on the blade the entire time as long as you continue that same pressure change to have the wave continue to travel continuously and evenly from the heel to the toe.
Simple!
Till it ain't!
You guys are AMAZING :) Will have to read these posts multiple times, many many thanks :)
I should add an obvious follow up to my above post. Where the blade is making contact with the hone, the wave is being pushed by the blade. Later, when and where the blade is making BETTER contact with the blade because the bevel has been smoothed out more and the very apex of the bevel (aka the EDGE) is making contact with the hone, then the water is no longer pushed by the blade but it instead is flowing up onto the belly of the blade. This is a sign of much better contact between the blade and the hone. You need to continue the honing on that particular level of hone until that flow occurs uniformly along the entire length of the blade on both sides of the blade. Only when you have achieved this point should you consider moving on to the next higher grit of hone.
On some hones, when you reach this point you will feel the edge begin to stick to the hone. This also is a sign that you have reached the peak of what you can get from that grit.
You are confusing the razor being over the stone with being in contact.
The purpose of the X stroke is to shift the point of contact evenly from the heel to the toe, particularly for razors that are not perfectly straight.
As Glenn said the water will show you where you are making contact.
Very few razors are perfectly straight and flat, but it is usually not an issue, except in rare cases.
Think of honing a curved knife, if you went straight back and forth a large portion of the blade would not touch the stone, but if you used a slight X stroke you would slightly shift the pressure so the whole blade was in contact at one point from heel to toe.
Most folk in videos use an exaggerated X stroke from corner to corner, in that case the heel comes off the stone in the first inch of travel.
The stroke should be much less exaggerated so the heel stay on the stone at least half way and the toe ends up in the middle of the stone at the other end, a very shallow stroke.
Or with the heel forward and the toe in the upper corner, the heel ends up still on the stone at the lower corner, this is enough to shift the pressure and make contact from heel to toe.
Good question.