Tam O' Shanter Vs. Belgian Blue

I was wondering if anyone that ownes or has used both of these stones would care to compare the two stones. From what I have read it seems like both stones perform a similar function in that they can both be used in place of the 8K side of the Norton (although they are both slower) before moving on to a higher grit finishing stone like a coticule or an escher. The search function did not yield much information regarding the Tam O' Shanter except that it is a relatively slow but very effective hone and that it is highly recommended as a "must have" by several of the honemeisters. Thanks

I don't have the two though I do have the Belgian Blue. Its really more towards a 6K grit wise and it is very slow. I really don't use it very much because coming off the 4K I'll just go to the 8K. Every once in a while I'll get a contankerious razor that needs a different approach and then I'll pull out the blue.

Thank you for taking the time comment about your experiences. Since I already own a Belgian Blue and have been getting great results with it, I am more interested in finding out some more information on the Tam O’ Shanter hone. I am considering purchasing one but I am wondering if it is different enough to justify having both hones in my collection.

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

Thank you for taking the time comment about your experiences. Since I already own a Belgian Blue and have been getting great results with it, I am more interested in finding out some more information on the Tam O’ Shanter hone. I am considering purchasing one but I am wondering if it is different enough to justify having both hones in my collection.

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Michael Parker liked it (TOS) because it took care of some microchipping that other hones couldn't address, afair

Cheers
Ivo

It is great for polishing out microchips and dealing with brittle razors. But I don't have a belgian blue so I don't know how the two compare.

Maybe I have just been lucky but I have never really had a problem with microchipping on the Norton.

Two of my Sta-Sharps have had that problem, as well as my Wacker - Wackers seem to be particularly notorious for this.

Same here on my Sta - I used Norton and Yellow (no Blue, TOS)

Cheers
Ivo

I have used the TOS more than I have the Belgian blue. I find the TOS to be a very useful stone for the micrchip removal and for the "feel" of the edge that it develops. I always use a slurry with the TOS and usually follow it with the Norton 8K and Escher then the 0.5 micron chrome oxide. It gives me an edge that I really like. To me the TOS is finer than the blue but of course each blue is a bit different. YMMV.:)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I have used the TOS more than I have the Belgian blue. I find the TOS to be a very useful stone for the micrchip removal and for the "feel" of the edge that it develops. I always use a slurry with the TOS and usually follow it with the Norton 8K and Escher then the 0.5 micron chrome oxide. It gives me an edge that I really like. To me the TOS is finer than the blue but of course each blue is a bit different. YMMV.:)

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I was really hoping that you would comment on this Randy since you were one of the "honemeisters" that I was referring to in my original post. So you use the TOS after the bevel is established on the 4K right? Do you always use the Norton 8K after using the TOS before moving onto the Escher? How many strokes do you usually use when using the TOS as an intermediate between the 4K and the 8K or do you go strictly by the feel of the hone? Also what percentage of razors do you estimate that you use the TOS on?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I was really hoping that you would comment on this Randy since you were one of the "honemeisters" that I was referring to in my original post. So you use the TOS after the bevel is established on the 4K right? Do you always use the Norton 8K after using the TOS before moving onto the Escher? How many strokes do you usually use when using the TOS as an intermediate between the 4K and the 8K or do you go strictly by the feel of the hone? Also what percentage of razors do you estimate that you use the TOS on?

Thanks

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Currently I always use the TOS after the Norton 4K for about 50-100 laps with a slurry on 100% of my razors. Sometimes I use the Norton 8k and sometimes I just jump directly to the Escher. But.... by jumping it takes a lot more laps on the Escher.

My results pretty much mirror Randy's. I use the 4k to establish a good bevel, then I'll use 50 laps on the TOS, then a modified 10/10 pyramid on the TOS/8k. Then a coticule or Thuringen, then Escher, then CrO2.

I tend to use it the same way as Randy and Joe, except that I usually follow it with the Shapton 8k (which is a fair bit finer than the Norton 8k but still a pretty fast hone), then the Shapton 15k, then the chrome oxide. I agree with Randy about the feedback, the TOS really tells you a lot about the conditions all along the bevel, any area that isn't quite there yet will feel markedly different on the hone.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

My results pretty much mirror Randy's. I use the 4k to establish a good bevel, then I'll use 50 laps on the TOS, then a modified 10/10 pyramid on the TOS/8k. Then a coticule or Thuringen, then Escher, then CrO2.

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It's very interesting that all three honemeisters here use the 8K after the TOS. I had thought the TOS was more or less a substitute for the 8K.

Joe, how essential do you find this TOS/8K pyramid to be? I ask because I have a 1K/4K Norton but no 8K. I've been going 4K to TOS (50+ laps) to Coticule (~30 laps) and then chrome oxide on leather. The results are the best I've had from my own honing, and I've finally got my wedges sharp enough to go ATG, but there's always room for improvement.

Not that you asked me, Curtis - but I do find I don't like my 8K for some reason and try to limit my time on it. I would rather do 4K, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, chromium, maybe Escher too after the Yellow.

Sometimes I also go to the Coticule right after 4K.

I think my particular 8K *may* cause microchipping...

Looking forward to Joe's response myself

Cheers
Ivo

FWIW I talked to Randy on the phone last night about the TOS hone and he told me that by using the TOS between the 4K and 8K Norton he can get an edge that is more comfortable on his skin (not necessarily sharper). He said that he thinks that it has something to do with the TOS leaving a finer scratch pattern than the Norton. Randy told me that he will sometimes go from the 4K to the TOS then skip the 8K Norton; however, when he does this he has to do many more passes on the coticule or escher before moving on to the chromium oxide.

I also talked to Howard on the phone this morning and he told me that neither he nor Lynn really like using this stone on razors; however, it is still a good stone for some applications in his opinion. I am going to order one to try for myself based on the endorsements of Randy, Joe, and Tony. If nothing else it will be a cool hone to have in my collection based on its history.

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Originally Posted by izlat

Not that you asked me, Curtis - but I do find I don't like my 8K for some reason and try to limit my time on it. I would rather do 4K, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, chromium, maybe Escher too after the Yellow.

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I also do this sequence sometimes. Though I have yet to try the Escher. There's enough of a difference between it and the coticule?

To go back to the original question, in my experience as a non-honemeister who is nevertheless over the newbie hump and doing my own razors, I think the blue and the TOS are really very similar. Slow, creamy smooth medium fine hones that take their time but are a pleasure to use, give lots of feedback (and similar suction signalling (I think) that it's time to move on), and are generally worth the results.

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Originally Posted by izlat

Sometimes I also go to the Coticule right after 4K.

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Never tried it but why not. That crazy cat LX Emergency doesn't even bother with the 4K, just flies his hand hummingbird fast over a bout that some guys would call a rubbing stone for fifteen minutes straight and calls it a day. By all accounts his edges are proof that the method works in the right hands.

Even if the right hand is a left hand in his case.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

That crazy cat LX Emergency doesn't even bother with the 4K, just flies his hand hummingbird fast over a bout that some guys would call a rubbing stone for fifteen minutes straight and calls it a day. By all accounts his edges are proof that the method works in the right hands.

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I am still to hone my first blade, and don't want to do Nortons because they are not natural - I don't like synthetic things generally, preferring to use the things mother nature has provided us to get the job done.

However to me, it seems to make sense that if we are cutting with a 4k first, then moving to an 8k and then a coticule, that if we just spent long enough on the coticule we would achieve the same result anyway. The 4k only takes more metal off, but the final polish of the coticule is removing the cuts that the 4k and the 8k have made in the bevel anyway, so why not let it do all the cutting?

I realise we are not all, and most of us will probably never be, as fast as LX, but surely 30 minutes on the coticule is the same as a pyramid finishing with a couple of laps on the coticule. Same amount of material removed, only more gently and it took longer?

Or am I way off the mark here?

Si

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Originally Posted by Sunsi

I realise we are not all, and most of us will probably never be, as fast as LX, but surely 30 minutes on the coticule is the same as a pyramid finishing with a couple of laps on the coticule. Same amount of material removed, only more gently and it took longer?

Or am I way off the mark here?

Si

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Have a look at my experiences here.
Since I only had a yellow and blue at the time, I used that to de-burr the razor After I had damaged it when I grinded the spine to even out the hone wear.

To remove the burrs and denickify it at the end took me over 3.5 hours on the yellow, using an abrasive piece of coticule to raise a slurry.

I have removed similar nicks on my Norton 1K in under 10 minutes.

So it's true that you can use nothing but the yellow, but I bet that even LX would end up with a tennis elbow if the edge is really in need of restoration (with big nicks and burrs)

I agree with Bruno here.

There are various SRP members with unusual skills. Scott aka honedright can go a year without honing, and his stropping is so good that when he does hone he doesn't worry too much about edge tests beyond the thumbnail (if I remember correctly). For him stropping is the key to a sharp razor. LX has excellent technique on a small finishing stone, and manages to use it for almost everything. But someone else's tour-de-force doesn't become a training model for newbies. I have a friend who can walk on her hands, and while I admire her strength and balance and physical self-mastery, it isn't the best way for me to get to the corner store to buy a coke. There's a lot to be learned from LX and Scott's inspiring example. Learn from their mastery of specific techniques (stropping and x-ing on a small stone), rather than trying to replicate the bravura element of what they do. If the general advice on SRP were for newbs to get a tiny coticule and a strop and nothing else, and plan on honing only once a year and then only til the razor passes the thumbnail test and then just strop like hell from there, there would be very few members who would get past the newbie hump and become successful straight shavers.

It goes without saying that this is just my 2 cents.

Couldn't agree more Dylan. The newbie notes are there because they work, and have been proven to work.

I must say though that what I, as a noob, have found far better then the initial advice, is that reading the forums shows that there are so many other ways of doing things.

It is nice for me to know that just because I didn't buy a norton 4/8 (and don't want one either - its unnatural) and a Tony Miller strop (import duties will make it uneconomical) and a razor honed by Lynn (LX is in the next coutry to me and turned it around in a week), doesn't mean I am doomed for failure either. I can get by on my yellow, blue and TOS stones just as well as with a 4k/8k. Even if I will end up with a right arm like arnie...

Si

Sunsi, sounds like you know what you're up against, and LX will be able to give you good advice. Bear in mind though that even LX has a coarser stone for chips and what not; the blues and TOS's are great for microchips but not major repairs or setting new bevels.

Also, I think the idea that a half hour on the coticule can substitute for significant work at the lower grits may be optimistic. If you develop your technique to LX's level maybe not. But let's say just for example, that doing so would require 250 passes on the coticule. Ballpark estimate. How good is your technique? Can you manage, like LX, to never flub a stroke? If you get to the 198th pass and a door slams somewhere and you lift the spine and rake off the edge, I think we'll hear your howls of frustration all the way from the Eastern seaboard of the United States.

I also love natural stones. The first thing I got was a blue/yellow natural, and for a long time I tried to use Arkansas white stones for all my low-grit work. It's taken me about seven months to learn how to hone – !! – and the all the major milestones happened in the last month. What happened to trigger the sudden acceleration in my slow-motion learning curve? I finally broke down and bought a Norton 1/4K.

Take this all with a grain of salt. I'm writing partly out of envy. I came into this hoping to keep it all simple and minimalist, a couple of razors and a single natural stone. I failed at this, and have only admiration for LX's success, which will be yours too if you manage.

I have several Tams of different sizes and a bunch of belgian blues. The reason you should buy both is that they work differently on different razors. You have to experiment to find out. I get calls all the time from people telling me they could never get an edge on the XYZ razor until they used a particular stone.

I agree with Howard's "Buy Both" comments. I own a lot of different stones, partly because I simply love the natural ones but also because each behaves differently on different steels. I think you will find Lynn comments on this as well many times.

There are lots of choices and from reading the many threads people have each found thier own unique path to honing sucess based on what was available to them.

No need to feel shorted because you don't own a TI, or a natural blue/yellow coticule, or a yellow/green Escher or one of my or Keith's strops. Learn to use what you have.......the rest is icing on the cake.

Many guys get by just fine with an old eBay razor, Grandpa's old Arkansas stone and a leather belt for a strop.

Tony