Ceramic stones for honing razors

I've been working on learning to hone razors for 15 months. I've only been using Shapton glass stones 1k - 16k. I go primarily like the video Lynn has using the Shapton glass stones. I've also had Spyderco ceramic stones (fine and ultra-fine grits) for a few years for my knives. I decided to try the UF stone on a razor. After 2 or 3 shaves in two days shaving small parts of my face I'm getting great results using the Spyderco UF stone instead of the 16k Shapton. After the stones I strop on a felt strop with .5 micron spray (approx. 25 passes) then a kangaroo strop (approx. 75 passes). I was very surprised how well the ceramic stone did. But given my inexperience I don't trust my knowledge to fully believe or state the UF stone is worse, same or better than anything else. The way it seems now is with the experience or skill I have now I got good shaves compared to the shaves I get from other razors I'm honing. I tried the UF stone on a Dovo from SRD, a Boker (gift from friend) and two razors I got off ebay for about $5 each. Actually one of them is only 2.5" long and shaves great.

I did shave after using the 4k and 8k and then stropping. The edge didn't seem as good as it did with the UF stone in the progression. So I sat down and worked on the razor with the 8k again, then the UF stone then stropping. The stropping was always the same approx. number of passes on the same strops.

Has anyone else used ceramic stones for honing razors? If so what are your feelings. I'd love to hear opinions of people far more experienced than I am.

Jack

I've used it and still have it but honestly I don't think I have used it in the past 5 years.

It is a perfectly boring hone with little feedback that quickly does its job just fine, producing a perfectly good edge.

A couple of facts for you just in case...

1. It seems to work better dry.
2. It should NOT be lapped. In fact, the only difference between the Fine and UltraFine Spyderco hones is the surface ground by the factory.

One can put a better surface grind on those stones or the triangle stones that come in the knife sharpening kit. A fine or ultra fine DMT plate will do the job. I've done several to prepare them for my work and also to clean them when scotchbrite won't work as well.

Well this is another case differing opinions.

Put it this way. If you truly believe that you can lap a Spyderco hone AND that lapping will improve the hone's surface, then go ahead and buy the Fine hone. It costs $20 less and if you are going to destroy the factory surface, you might as well save $20.

Again, the only difference between the Fine and UltraFine is the factory surface. The hones are made from EXACTLY the same material. If you alter that surface with a DMT you will damage the DMT and the Spyderco hone.

I have surfaced plenty of Spyderco ceramics. It is certainly possible to do better than the factory finish. The stone will finish differently depending on how its surface is finished, like with any very hard stone. On my own UF I left one side with the factory grind (they grind it with a diamond cup wheel on a surface grinder) and lapped the other side to a 600 or 800 grit SiC loose grit finish. I forget which, it has been a while.

As noted, these ceramics will seriously dull a diamond plate, so I also would not recommend using one to lap if you want it to retain any cutting speed. If you lap with SiC you'll need to recharge the lapping plate often because the hardness of the ceramic will cause the SiC to break down rapidly. (Spyderco ceramics are 9.22 Moh's hardness, SiC is 9.5 Moh's). For the final finish you'll want to charge with new grit and lap about 5 or 10 figure eights, then immediately recharge again and do 5 or 10 more, etc. repeating until you have an even finish. This is necessary to ensure you aren't lapping with dull, broken-down grit so that the ceramic will still cut well rather than just burnishing.

The coarser the lapping, the faster it will cut but the worse the finish will be. The finer the lapping, the slower it will cut but the finer the finish will be. Each individual will need to strike their own balance of these characteristics for what they want out of the stone.

I bought a fine and an UF grit 2" wide bench stone. I sold the UF to provide funds to try a different type stone. A couple of years later I bought the UF stone again. I have a Sharpmaker UF rod. I have a fine grit triangle 4" or 5" rod. It's one of the set of four shorter stones. That's all I have I think. I've never even considered lapping any of them. They have all been flat. I've checked them with a steel ruler. Every tool has done exactly like it is supposed to. I read somewhere 3-4 years ago that the grit difference is achieved by the amount of time the stone is heated or a different temp. I think that's for the fine and UF grits. I'm stating what I "remember" which isn't always the best source of information. My memory I mean. :)

Since the fine and UF grits are both white I marked the ends of both of mine when I first got them. Now, after using them quite a bit I can tell which stone is which when I use them. They feel different. One of you said the UF stone has no feedback. I completely agree with this. It's like you are sliding your knife on something and nothing is happening. No steel removal or anything. But, if the edge is already sharp enough for the UF to do it's job it will put a very nice smooth edge on a knife. Another thing about using it on razors. After using a Shapton glass 8k stone the bevel should be like a mirror finish to the naked eye. My old blind eyes anyway. :) The UF stone did not scratch up the surface of the bevel after using the 8k Shapton. The scratch pattern is about the only thing I trust when it comes to a particular stone or grit. The fine grit DMT will leave a different appearance than the fine grit Spyderco even though they are both labeled "fine" from the company. Seems stones are only "fine" or "medium" or "extra or ultra-fine" when compared to the other stones of the same type.

Getting off subject a bit. Anyway, I have never considered lapping a Spyderco stone. In fact the fine and UF stones are not supposed to ever need lapping. They also don't dish or wear like water stones do. The medium grit will dish a tiny bit according to Spyderco I think. There was one guy who had one of the Spyderco stones (fine or UF) that wasn't flat a couple of years ago and posted a thread about it on the Spyderco forum. He tried lapping it. He marked it with a marker before lapping it which proved the surface wasn't flat. I forget the outcome of that situation but if I had a stone like that I'd just return it to the seller or get it replaced by Spyderco. If you buy a Spyderco stone and it isn't flat I think that's a warranty issue and it should be replaced or at least evaluated by Spyderco. I value Spyderco stones for what I see them to be. I see them to be outstanding sharpening tools that require no maintenance other than washing them under running water with Barkeeper's friend or another GOOD cleanser. Surprisingly, tooth paste works really well. :)

Any more discussion about lapping Spyderco stones is welcome because all knowledge is welcome. But for the reason for this thread has anyone used them for honing a straight razor? If so, what is your opinion of the results?

Jack

I experimented with the Spyderco ultra fine. I live by their factory store, so I have a lot of spyderco stuff ;).
They offer so little feedback it is really hard to use for an amateur but i was able to get good, but inconsistent results. I'm curious, for those of you that use em, how many trips do you tend to use? And do you use it as a finisher or before a finer stone or paste?
I used mine after a norton 4/8k and then used paste to finish.

The "surface finish" is why I have never messed with the Spyderco stones & have stuck with my shapton gs's & follow up with whatever finisher is tickling my fancy.

Jack0458: My "secret recipe" that has worked on every, I repeat every razor I have encountered, is Chosera 1K, Shapton GS 2,4,8,16K followed by most often a yellow-green Escher. I know it's going back a little in "grit", but there is something that a quality thuringian stone does to an edge that most other stones just can't copy.

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Originally Posted by stove

I experimented with the Spyderco ultra fine. I live by their factory store, so I have a lot of spyderco stuff ;).
They offer so little feedback it is really hard to use for an amateur but i was able to get good, but inconsistent results. I'm curious, for those of you that use em, how many trips do you tend to use? And do you use it as a finisher or before a finer stone or paste?
I used mine after a norton 4/8k and then used paste to finish.

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Just to be clear did you use the UF Spyderco on razors or knives. I think I tried the UF stone for razors a year or so ago but I was SUPER new to honing razors and had no idea what to expect. But I have used Spyderco stones a whole lot for knives. For knives (and razors I guess) I need to get to know the stone to get supurb results. In fact it took me quite a bit of using Shapton glass stones on knives before I was getting supurb results on knives. If I wanted a really smooth edge I'd always use the Spyderco UF after a finer (4k and up) Shapton glass stone. Now, after using them more I can get great results with the Shapton glass. As far as inconsistent results when trying to get the ultimate edge on a knife a lot of it comes down to how accurate THE LAST STROKE is. Since free hand sharpening of knives is not a perfect science because no one can maintain a perfect angle the last stroke becomes more important than the last stroke on a razor. Maybe. I'm still very new to honing razors. But right now it seems to me the "feel" required for razors is the "feeling" I can get when applying different amounts of pressure to just the edge. When resetting the bevel with a 1k stone I can keep a tiny bit of pressure on the spine while putting more pressure on the edge. More pressure for razors is still considered light pressure when sharpening knives. I'm getting long winded (again). The thing is that in my experience the Spyderco sharpening stones are a top shelf set of sharpening tools. Are they better than water stones? Nope. Are water stones better than the ceramic stones? Nope. But they are significantly different and when you get used to either they produce excellent edges. Different type stones require a "getting to know them" period to get the best results they can perform. This is true of so many different tools. I bought a new circular saw a few months ago. Immediately I realized I needed to get to know this saw as it "felt" different than my old one. Some of you guys know the saw. It's the one that feels like part of your arm. :) This is true for me when sharpening knives and it seems likely it would be the same for razors. Not that I'm comparing sharpening knives to honing razors. The technique required for getting good results is completely different. When I started honing razors I didn't realize how true this is even though the experienced guys kept saying it. Enough rambling.

Jack

You sir are on the right path to become a good honer:chapeau

I was talking about using the Spyderco on Razors.
I do use it on knives too. I run my carry knives on the ceramic a couple trips occasionally to keep em sharp. I'm decent at knife sharpening, but prefer to use the ceramics to keep em sharp instead. Once a knife is dull, I usually use a lansky kit to sharpen.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

The "surface finish" is why I have never messed with the Spyderco stones & have stuck with my shapton gs's & follow up with whatever finisher is tickling my fancy.

Jack0458: My "secret recipe" that has worked on every, I repeat every razor I have encountered, is Chosera 1K, Shapton GS 2,4,8,16K followed by most often a yellow-green Escher. I know it's going back a little in "grit", but there is something that a quality thuringian stone does to an edge that most other stones just can't copy.

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When reading a post like yours I immediately want to check out the Escher stone or hone. I'm still up for trying new stones. But I think (actually I'm sure) I have the stones to get great results already. What I need more than a new stone is more experience. After a year of honing (sort of :)) razors I'm just now starting to get results I'm proud of. I've been shaving with the razors I hone for the entire time and MAN, can I tell a difference in my shaves from a year ago. Anyway, I don't think I need another stone but I'm going to look into a yellow-green Escher. Is the yellow-green a grit reference? I may end up getting one just to try it. I need to wait at least a little while though. Right now I'm seeing how I feel about the Spyderco UF stone. Another one right now would only confuse me.

Jack

Sure, I have used my lapped Spyderco UF on razors. It works very well. It slightly improved on the factory grind as far as the finish imparted to razor, but not by much. I find the edge to be extremely keen and fairly smooth, but not quite as smooth as an Escher/Thuringian. (Yellow-Green is a color reference, BTW). I usually make about 50 laps with extremely light pressure for the finishing touch when using the UF. It requires quite a high level of refinement before using it if one wants optimal results. I usually go to at least the 8k Shapton Pro prior to using it.

My main concern and primary cause for lapping my UF stone was flatness - my stone had a slight twist in it which I wanted to correct. Not much, but as a machinist I am picky, lol. Again, the factory stones are surface ground with a diamond cup wheel. If you look closely you will see radial (circular) tool marks on the surface. This surfacing is the only difference between F and UF "grits" from Spyderco. The F stone is fired and left as is, the UF gets surface ground after firing.

You have an excellent set of stones. I started out with a hodge podge of stones, then a set of naniwa's, then the nortons...and then I graduated to the shapton gs's and have never looked back. Once I got the hang of them, i started messing around with finishers & just can't shake that tried and true combination. I still mess around with other natural finishers and even the G20, but if I have a troubled blade come my way i always revert to what works.

As far as the color references in the thuringians, i really don't think it's to do with grit. I've only had about a half dozen thuri's in my hands, but they all seem to be rather close in "grit". They all have personalities, some are softer than others, but Ihave never seen a bad one.

I do like your approach, you are learning one stone at a time for finishing. You are right, trying several finishers at one time without having a working knowledge of them will muddy the waters...ask me how I know.

Hello to All,

For razors, I use my Spyderco UF mostly as a substrate for 'slurry' experiments - for this it is superb.

My UF is not flat enough for my taste - you can see the swirls of swarf on the peaks of the stone when honing knives. My Fine is visibly bowed along the long axis- still works a treat though :)

Have fun :)

Best regards

Russ