Trying to refresh a blade with a smile...

Hi,

I have a Saunders near wedge that has a curved blade. After about 9 shaves, with stropping on webbing and leather. In between, it is pulling some, and I'm getting some irritation in spots.

I looked at the edge, and there is about 1/4" at the very toe, and 1/2" at the heel, where it appears "shiny". I don't see it rolled, so I'm guessing it is dull. On the 8th save, I did 25 passes on cr-on, but it didn't improve at all, and the shiny spots are still visible.

My suspicion is that I'm not stropping the heel and toe well. Suggestions from the forum are to try rolling x stokes, while I'll try. In the meantime, I decided to try honing (my second time ever, first on this blade).

On my 12k Naniwa, I tried 40 rolling x strokes, with no noticeable improvement. I did 140 strokes focused on the heel, with straight strokes, applying light pressure on the heel area with finger from my other hand. It was improving in that area, but not much. Note: throughout, I'd do 20 strokes and check.

I swapped tape (3 layers, same as how was pro honed when I got it), and gave my Norton 8k. I did about 80 strokes focusing on the toe, 30 on the heel. I did another 20 rolling x strokes.

There was still a slight shiny area at heel and toe, but I decided (mistakenly?) to go back up to 12k, with new tape. I did about 40 on heel and 40 on toe, and 20 rolling x patterns. I then did 20x on cr-on, 50 webbing, and 100 leather stopping.

I checked, and there still was a small, 1/8" at toe, and maybe 1/4" at heel that was still a little shiny. I wasn't sure if the cr-ox would help, but it appears not to, at least noticeably.

So... I went back to the 12k and did 100x focused on toe, and another 100x focused on heel. Finished with 40 rolling x patterns. I checked and I don't see any shiny spot at toe, and very heel has maybe 1/8 that is a little shiny.

I decide to call it a day, did 20x cr-ox, 50 webbing, and 100 leather stropping. I did a shave with it today, and it was way better, no pulling and much less irritation (some may be from previous shaving).

I haven't yet been able to judge how low of a grit to go to reverse dullness (especially with this wedge, the Dovo seemed to go much faster). Should I have gone down to 4k?

Should I have, instead of the steps I did, do 20 (or less?) strokes at 12k, assess the edge, and if no improvement go to 8k and do the same, and finally do the same at 4k (as the worst case grit)?

I guess I'm realizing that, at whatever grit I end up with, I need to stay there, until the issue is resolved.

My thoughts on some of the honing, was to try to just work the areas of concern, and leave alone (for the most part) the middle, which seemed ok. Should I, instead have just done rolling x strokes? Different strokes?

Lastly, should I have done some progression, when going from the 8k to 12k, after clearing the issue?

I'm having a tough time recovering the edge on this blade and stropping it as well, likely a lack of skills and experience. I plan on continuing a bit more with it, and when it degrades again, retry honing, and then check the shave. If OK, Ill then rotate to the Spike I have, which only has a few shaves on it. I'll see how it is to maintain that blade.

Appreciate any suggestions!

Not an expert by any means but with the two problem areas I would go to the 12K first for 20 circles just on the two problem areas and see what that does. If that does nothing go down to 8K repeat and see. If no joy there go down one more level and repeat. When you get to a grit level that works stay there till all the problem is solved. Then go back up the progression with light pressure using a rolling X stroke with your smiling blade till you are done. Strop and test shave.

Bob

When refreshing blades, I go all the way down to the 1k, even if it's for just a few strokes, to make sure that the bevel is still completely ready. Then I work up with a normal progression.

I was initially resistant to this practice, as I thought to myself "but what if it only needed a few strokes on the 8k, then a visit on the finisher? I'd have wasted time and metal going all the way back to the 1k and then working up." But, really, you don't remove much metal going all the way back down, and going all the way back to the bevel removes the guesswork which, as you found, can eat up a lot of time and still not get you the result you are looking for.

There could be issues with your stroke. I think before you do much more I would do a magic marker test and the rolling X. Make sure your strokes are effective from toe to heal. the 8K and 12K do not remove very much metal at all and need an established bevel to be effectively doing anything. Once the effectiveness of your stroke has been established you can can all the way down for as many strokes as it takes to get your bevel back, then work your way up.

I am by no means trying to discourage you but IMO a smiling wedge or smiling near wedge is one of the most difficult type razors to hone. I am far from one to complicate or over dramatize the honing process, while it is certainly a skill it is one at one time virtually every man could do. With time and practice I firmly believe anyone can become fairly proficient at it. That being said I dont think this type razor is an ideal one to learn or hone your skill on (little pun there). I really think your best bet may be having it honed professionally. Meantime master your stropping technique, practice refreshing or honing on some more straightforward type razors, and save this one until you have a tad more experience under your belt. Now if this razor isnt one you are particularly fond of or dont mind using to learn then maybe you should keep going. All I know is sometimes the hole gets deeper and deeper and without some hands on assistance or professional help this one could become a perennial thorn in your side and eventually more harm than good can be done to the blade. Is there someone experienced nearby that could perhaps assist you?

Sounds like from where it was easily visible that there was damage starting at the 4k would be a better option. The marker test is good for establishing that you are getting the entire edge. I would hone the entire edge as opposed to extra work on the toe and heel as it will make honing later harder as you are only adding wear to those areas. Yes it is a good idea to stay at the lower grit till the bevel is set. There is no point polishing a incomplete bevel.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

When refreshing blades, I go all the way down to the 1k, even if it's for just a few strokes, to make sure that the bevel is still completely ready. Then I work up with a normal progression.

I was initially resistant to this practice, as I thought to myself "but what if it only needed a few strokes on the 8k, then a visit on the finisher? I'd have wasted time and metal going all the way back to the 1k and then working up." But, really, you don't remove much metal going all the way back down, and going all the way back to the bevel removes the guesswork which, as you found, can eat up a lot of time and still not get you the result you are looking for.

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Interesting proposal. I'm reluctant to do that for two reasons. For one, I'm new to straights (used DEs for years), and have only done honing once (on a 12k to touch up a ding from the sink). Two, this is the first curved blade I have, and I'm not sure I'm ready to tackle the challenge of setting a bevel on a curved edge (sort of want to try straight edges first).

It just is a luck of the draw that I'm on this blade. I started with the Dovo, and then got a Spike. The Dovo did well for quite a few shaves, and then I got the Saunders, which I wanted to try because it was so different (wedge and curved).

I'm thinking of try to keep it maintained, and then switching to the Spike, which I haven't shaved much with, before coming back around to this blade. Maybe by then I'll have some honing under my belt.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

There could be issues with your stroke. I think before you do much more I would do a magic marker test and the rolling X. Make sure your strokes are effective from toe to heal. the 8K and 12K do not remove very much metal at all and need an established bevel to be effectively doing anything. Once the effectiveness of your stroke has been established you can can all the way down for as many strokes as it takes to get your bevel back, then work your way up.

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Hmm, sounds like I should try the marker to see if I'm doing the right stroke on this blade. The rolling x does seem harder to do. Can I do this test on stropping as well?

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Originally Posted by JimmyWetshaver

I am by no means trying to discourage you but IMO a smiling wedge or smiling near wedge is one of the most difficult type razors to hone. I am far from one to complicate or over dramatize the honing process, while it is certainly a skill it is one at one time virtually every man could do. With time and practice I firmly believe anyone can become fairly proficient at it. That being said I dont think this type razor is an ideal one to learn or hone your skill on (little pun there). I really think your best bet may be having it honed professionally. Meantime master your stropping technique, practice refreshing or honing on some more straightforward type razors, and save this one until you have a tad more experience under your belt. Now if this razor isnt one you are particularly fond of or dont mind using to learn then maybe you should keep going. All I know is sometimes the hole gets deeper and deeper and without some hands on assistance or professional help this one could become a perennial thorn in your side and eventually more harm than good can be done to the blade. Is there someone experienced nearby that could perhaps assist you?

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Yeah, that's my reluctance with this blade. I see, just with stropping, it is harder to maintain. The jury is still as to whether I like the curved wedge more or less than the 1/2 and 1/4 hollow blades.

There aren't any mentors around, but some senior members. Someone else suggested to try touching based with them. I should get up the nerve to do that, maybe once it getter nicer out (we're going through some rough weather this Winter).

I'll have to decide whether to attempt going to setting bevel, or just hold off on this one for a while. I have two others to use.

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Originally Posted by pcm

Hmm, sounds like I should try the marker to see if I'm doing the right stroke on this blade. The rolling x does seem harder to do. Can I do this test on stropping as well?

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Yes, using the marker is a good idea. I don't think you use a rolling X stroke while stropping, at least I never have with a smiling blade. Always thought there would be enough slack in the strop to take care of things. I can even picture how to do a rolling X stroke on a strop.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, using the marker is a good idea. I don't think you use a rolling X stroke while stropping, at least I never have with a smiling blade. Always thought there would be enough slack in the strop to take care of things. I can even picture how to do a rolling X stroke on a strop.

Bob

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I have a hanging and bench strop, so I could try it on the latter. Was wondering if I need to make adjustiments to my technique for stropping, as there is wear only on the heel an toe. I've been doing an x pattern stropping.

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Originally Posted by pcm

I have a hanging and bench strop, so I could try it on the latter. Was wondering if I need to make adjustiments to my technique for stropping, as there is wear only on the heel an toe. I've been doing an x pattern stropping.

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don't need to do x-rolling on a strop, hanging or bench, there is sufficient give in the strop to gently affect the edge regardless of edge profile.

Yup, you’re not honing to the edge and may not have completely set the bevel.

Ink the bevel and do a lap on the 12k if you are not removing ink to the edge… that is your problem.

The rolling X is really a simple stroke, but we often make it way too complicated, by adding too much “rolling” action.

Just start in the upper corner and end in the middle of the stone, keeping the heel on the stone until half way across the stone. It is a very subtle motion that moves the pressure point from the heel to the toe, too much rolling and the edge is off the stone.

It is impossible to say without looking at the razor, how much stone you need to repair it. This is no-longer a simple honing, it is a repair and needs to be addressed as such. And as said, It needs a full 1K bevel set.